I didn't know Wayne Leek, but the SB range in Tucson is named after him. From what I understand he designed the 870 shotgun, and was the force behind Rem chambering the 700V in 7-08, just for silhouette.

He is also the father of the nylon 66.

Tony,

As I recall it, Wayne was involved in the XP-100 project, if not the poppa bear. I've seen the "Leek Contour" barrels. They are a big hunk of steel. I think Hart or somebody still has them listed, but most people have played with different contours since then. The reason I was skeptical about the Wayne Leek story I had heard was the word "invented". I have little doubt but that he played an important role in promoting the adoption of smallbore in its present configuration of 1/5th size at 1/5th the distance because it makes perfect sense as a training tool and as a competition when things look the same.

Cheers,

Rick

This is turning out to be a pretty good thread. Learning a lot. Quick, someone start an argument over 6.5 vs 7mm. Haha.

Modified quote from my old pal JB (shotgun reference out)........ " From what I understand he was the force behind Rem chambering the 700V in 7-08, just for silhouette."

No need to argue,Trent. Leek got it right the first time.

OK Bob, now you can start with the WDM "Karamojo" Bell story about him changing from 6.5x54 to 7x57 for elephant, reportedly because of defective ammunition. It is supposed that he did not like the way the 6.5mm bullets were bent when he dug them out of elephant carcasses. He is supposed to have taken about 800 of over 1,000 elephant with the 7x57mm using 173 gr. FMJs.

How many rams he took with this combination is not recorded.

Bob Mc Alice wrote:Modified quote from my old pal JB (shotgun reference out)........ " From what I understand he was the force behind Rem chambering the 700V in 7-08, just for silhouette."

No need to argue,Trent. Leek got it right the first time.

Bob, there were no good 6.5mm bullets when Wayne was alive but if he were here today he would be a 6.5mm user, remember he was a very intelligent person.

Bob Mc Alice wrote:Modified quote from my old pal JB (shotgun reference out)........ " From what I understand he was the force behind Rem chambering the 700V in 7-08, just for silhouette."

No need to argue,Trent. Leek got it right the first time.

touché!!! Haha!

Ok Dammit!! I was just joking!!

Tony, this is Ernie (Visiting John and borrowed his computer!)

The story that I have on the turkey distance is similar -- but different.

As I have it, there was a nice, shaded shooting line located where everything else worked out for 200, 300 and 500m but a small rise with a shallow gulley behind it masked targets from sight at 400m.
Rather than level the rise or fill the hollow, they just put the turkeys on the rise as close to 400 as possible...which was at 385.

That information may well be just like the story about Roman chariots and railroad track spacing -- but that's the way I heard it. (However, a shaded firing point for the shooters would have been IMO considered more important than a shaded spot for the turkeys. I don't think they worried much about the 'comfort' of birds they were about to shoot at...) lol

As for the weight, I heard it the same as in the earlier post. A factory, pre-64 M70 standard bbl with the 'average' scopes and mounts in use early-on would weight no more than 10lb 2oz no matter what the wood density in its stock. So that became the rule.

John wrote:Tony, this is Ernie (Visiting John and borrowed his computer!)

The story that I have on the turkey distance is similar -- but different.

As I have it, there was a nice, shaded shooting line located where everything else worked out for 200, 300 and 500m but a small rise with a shallow gulley behind it masked targets from sight at 400m.
Rather than level the rise or fill the hollow, they just put the turkeys on the rise as close to 400 as possible...which was at 385.

That information may well be just like the story about Roman chariots and railroad track spacing -- but that's the way I heard it. (However, a shaded firing point for the shooters would have been IMO considered more important than a shaded spot for the turkeys. I don't think they worried much about the 'comfort' of birds they were about to shoot at...) lol

As for the weight, I heard it the same as in the earlier post. A factory, pre-64 M70 standard bbl with the 'average' scopes and mounts in use early-on would weight no more than 10lb 2oz no matter what the wood density in its stock. So that became the rule.

Hello Ernie, hope you are doing well. Not to contradict the story you heard although you should know that only near Mexican border towns do shooters in Mexico shoot 300 or 500 meters for that matter so with that in mind the story you heard of how or why the turkeys at 385 meters instead of 400 meters is suspect since the sport started near Mexico City and most of the ranges that have HP only shoot chickens at 200 and turkeys at 385. Another thing is that if you go to just about any shooting club in Mexico their facilities are not lacking and would make most of ours seem very inadequate. Some of those shooting facilities in Guadalajara, San Luis Potosi, etc. are similar to country clubs with well stocked bars, very large living areas where families of shooters can watch TV, play pool, etc. some of those places have swimming pools and also play ground areas for kids. Very well planned with shooting stands, covers, etc. So to say they picked the firing line because of the shade some trees offered the shooters, sorry but I do not buy that since I have never seen such set up any where I have shot here in the US, Mexico or Canada.

Around 1967 when the game was introduced to the US the rifle weight rule was 4 kilos (roughly 8.8 lbs) not including sights or scope. How it got bumped to 10.2 with sights included when the NRA decided to sanction the matches is pure speculation but having been in the silhouette committee and seen the process of changing the weight on the SB Hunting rifle from 7.5 lbs to 8.5 lbs, all it took was to ask for it since there were very few rifles that could pass the 7.5 rule without removing a lot of weight from their stocks.

There is an article in "THE RIFLE" magazine in 1969 where Roy Dunlap writes about the sport of Silueta!. There you can verify the 4 kilos rule.
http://www.riflesilhouette.com/about/Si ... eta_2.html

Found something in regards to the 10lbs 2oz rule in the same book written by Elgin Gates. On page 21 part of the interview with Jesse Rogers who is or was one of the pioneers of rifle silhouette shooting in the US.

"I feel it is time to comment on the one rule that, to me, has done more harm to the game than any and all the rest of the infringements combined. Nobody in the United Sates can be blamed for this, inasmuch as it took place before the game crossed the frontera. The rule referred to it is the maximum weight of ten pounds two ounces. This weight limitation is excessive. If you take an average hunting rifle and weight it, you will find it to be about 7 1/2 pounds. Add to that a scope and it should come out to about 8 1/2 pounds.
The weight limitations that were being used when the game entered was a maximum of eight pounds thirteen ounces for the gun alone. Another 1/2 kilo was allowed for the scope, rings and mounts, bringing the total to 4 1/2 kilos or ten pounds two ounces.
It is my firm belief that when the game was being shot exclusively in Mexico that the weight had been set at four kilos total. Somehow, somebody interpreted the rule to mean the gun alone could weigh four kilos and the scope another 1/2 kilo. I have talked to some of the older shooters in Mexico and they concur with my theory."
The interview continues a bit more. Remember Elgin Gates book was published in 1979 and Jesse saw and experienced the game from the beginning but not quite as early as Roy Dunlap that wrote his "Silueta" article in the "Rifle" magazine in 1969

Tony,

You probably have more accurate information than I do! lol

Ernie

Tony,

Thanks for the link. The "exclusive of sights" part of the rule is not an especially practical way of administering things. Changing the weight and including sights makes more sense and also explains why people would have been weighing rifles at the early U.S matches to see what a practical weight limit, with sights included, might be as I am sure that more than a few people had scope mounts that were not readily removable without losing zero. If I recall correctly, the Hunter's Pistol rule was changed for similar reasons and then adjusted to meet the weight of commonly available equipment combinations.

It is interesting to observe the way equipment and techinques have evolved as siluetas metalicas changed from an occasional "pick up sport" to a regular competition. There used to be a small NRA booklet that had a number of articles by or about different people's techniques which were apparently based on presentations at Nationals. I had a copy at one time, but I am sure it got it has been lost. I wonder if anyone still has a copy.

Anyway, this has been interesting clearing up some of the history of our sport.

Rick

For you the students of the sport of rifle silhouette
Jerry Webster has done a great job researching and publishing on his web site its vast history (I had almost forgotten my contribution to his article).
http://www.riflesilhouette.com/about/history.html