No doubt you can volunteer to move up...but why wouldn't a guy want to earn it. I'm not proposing a theory. I related historical application of classification. Your high scores never go away....you can hide and the particular match director may not remember or know your history but unless a fella's inclined to lie if a protest is brought by a fellow competitor and the jury finds your historical scores you will be moved up. This debate is pointless unless sandbagging is being analyzed'
The local clubs need more money to run the Nationals and the NRA as the sanctioning authority must stay involved but with less money and more attention.
If we had a rule like IDPA where every year we shoot a qualifier match to get our classification for the year.. then the prior year scores could set the lowest class for that shooter...competition would increase and the new guys would have a little less to be intimidated about. Or we should have the scores reported to theNRA and have them bird dog classification

At my first Nats, in 97, I went to my first and last competitor meeting, someone stated to Gregg that the score books were just another way for the NRA to get deeper into our pockets, then there was the song and dance routine and that ended that. No BS there!

Folks it is the electronic age. there's no valid reason why are scores can't be like high power and recorded by our NRA..I am very tired of being treated like a bastard discipline after all these years. Our sport is as tough if not tougher than mid range or palma...and I have had a bunch of distinguished masters fall on their ass on our game. We don't use pulse coats or slings nor do we lay in the weeds hiding our scores for the scoring tent. Its time to be treated as a legitimate discipline and Connor needs to snap out of his torpid stupor and work for the discipline, and all of us need to support the sport and stop the internal sqabbles until after we are fully recognized. support the sport the NRA and bring a new guy in. By the way my first nationals was in 1984 and we were actually on the cusp of being treated like a real deal....it was at Raton and we had 11 full relays...guns, scopes, etc were giveaways and awards

[quote="Snake"]Yes if a match director can prove the prior year's scores he can move the shooter up...proving the old scores is the issue. Thus its ripe for sand bagging. I have two master scores from 1993....I will carry them and use them if I get one more....because there's nothing in sand bagging...we really compete against ourselves ...the other guys only provide entertainment ;) By the way a match director can move you up if he thinks and can articulate that you belong in a higher class ( the 'I caught ya' rule)....then you can protest your ass off I had a guy who would shoot right up to the upper end of AA and then shot dirt..a few guys began to notice and so did I and he now is a resident in AAA....not a peep....remember to move down you have to prove the 12 consecutive lower scores...and this guy's proof would be incredible[/quote]
Ok Mr. Snake I've been trying to find the rule that says this more/less. Would you please post (paste and copy) the rule from where as a match director can bump up a shooter if he can prove a shooter is due so from more than the past 2 years scores ?trying to get educated here so we can get it right in the future .

ldholton wrote: Ok Mr. Snake I've been trying to find the rule that says this more/less. Would you please post (paste and copy) the rule from where as a match director can bump up a shooter if he can prove a shooter is due so from more than the past 2 years scores ?trying to get educated here so we can get it right in the future .

I don't recall, and am unable to find it in the current Pistol or Rifle Sihouette rulebooks, such a rule for NRA competitions, however... IHMSA does have such a rule:

9. Based on any factual, sufficient evidence, any National / Regional / State / Match Director, or member of the Executive Committee shall have the authority to reclassify any competitor into any IHMSA class according to "known ability" at any time before, during, or after a match.
A) To determine "known ability" any available facts and information may be taken into consideration.
B) Should there by any questions regarding this procedure or any decisions rendered there from, the competitor may refer the matter to the Executive Committee for a final decision.

- Tim

I believe the way it would work is the match director comes up with a decision, if you don't like it, you can protest and call for a jury decision, if you don't like the outcome of their decision, you can protest to the silhouette committee. That is why when you you g
o to say the nationals, the jury members names aren't posted, Connor will wait for a protest then pick the three member jury that sees things his way, and if you don't like it the match will be long over before you can protest to t
he silhouette committee.

I have never heard of a rule where the match director can move someone up a class. You have to shoot 3 scores in the next class up in the last 2 years and you can't move during the match. The ONLY way you can move during a match is if you shoot 2 classes higher than you are in. Then you move into the next higher class.

Couple of years ago at the AZ State SB match three notorious sandbaggers showed up with BS scorebooks, MD comes up to me and asks what to do, I said to throw all three in Master class not for just the first match but the entire match, then pick a jury that isn't to fond of sandbaggers. Didn't happen two of the three cleaned up on trophies for their class, in other words robbed someone else out of their deserved award. Wasn't my call to make, but that's what I would have done. As a side note all three of them were whining about being called out for sandbagging at Winnsboro and having to shoot in a higher class, I'm not sure who did that in La, but my hats off to you sir for that!

Jim Beckley wrote:Couple of years ago at the AZ State SB match three notorious sandbaggers showed up with BS scorebooks, MD comes up to me and asks what to do, I said to throw all three in Master class not for just the first match but the entire match, then pick a jury that isn't to fond of sandbaggers. Didn't happen two of the three cleaned up on trophies for their class, in other words robbed someone else out of their deserved award. Wasn't my call to make, but that's what I would have done. As a side note all three of them were whining about being called out for sandbagging at Winnsboro and having to shoot in a higher class, I'm not sure who did that in La, but my hats off to you sir for that!

Duckie don't play around.

Wouldn't it be nice if everything were computerized and there would be no sandbagging. You would be issued a card for your level based on scores submitted after each match. You would move up automatically after shooting 3 scores up a level. And the match directors would just submit your NRA number and would get back your levels. No more asking you. No more score books. Ahhhhh, well it never hurts to dream! Some day either the NRA will appoint someone with a brain or our sport will wither and die.

Why don't you boys read rule 19 and it sub parts. There''s no time limit on scores...read the rule. and yes there is no specific rule on a match director curing sand bagging...when I do it to you file a protest and see if the jury saves your sand bagging arse.

Looks like there is no " caught you" rule as Snake said , but looks like everyone thinks there should be or at least some rule changes on score books and class placement for the very reasons Mr. Beckley pointed out . So I ask would it really be that hard to get several match directors and experienced shooters to petition the NRA rules committee to make some changes ? Not trying to pick on you Snake you might well be a very good person to head such an petition and get the job done. Personally I think like 5 scores in a life time to move up (with current class and 4 highest on top of score book page ) , but than like 20 lower than current class to move down , but shoot one back in upper class you move right back up . You can only move down once in a life time . I am just a pee-on in this game but with enough group effort it could surly happen , love to here other ideas. It sounds like there is a lot of discontent with the current score/class system

[quote="Snake"]Why don't you boys read rule 19 and it sub parts. There''s no time limit on scores...read the rule. and yes there is no specific rule on a match director curing sand bagging...when I do it to you file a protest and see if the jury saves your sand bagging arse.[/quote] Mr Snake I guess I was typing my post at the same time you put this up , 19. ??? which part do I find this what sub part ?

Snake wrote:Why don't you boys read rule 19 and it sub parts. There''s no time limit on scores...read the rule. and yes there is no specific rule on a match director curing sand bagging...when I do it to you file a protest and see if the jury saves your sand bagging arse.

I think you're right. Rule 19 doesn't really limit the three scores to a two-year period (or any time period). Interesting...

Dustin

Rule 19, Classification 19.1 through 19.17.1....those are the subparts. see 19.4 for example...no expiration date on scores If there was an expiration date there would be such a rule ...like in IDPA wher one must re-shoot a classifier every year see 19.7 "It is the competitors responsibility to have an official NRA classification book CONTAINING SCORES OF PRIOR MATCHES"......not just the last year. See also 19.17 ...The first sentence says it all ...it does not limit reclassification to just the prior year. It says plainly scores in higher classifications.....NO TIME LIMIT. Its elementary statutory construction what is omitted is presumed omitted deliberately...