I suppose since swingers were used at the nationals this year there has to be some sort of approval authority and guide lines as to which can be used as is the case for the stand alone targets.

Who sells the above mentioned NRA approved swinges? Looked all over the net and have a phone call into the NRA competion section.

Where is this mentioned or noted in the 2007 rule book? I have looked high and low and cannot find it.

We have several shooters who want to set long run records using swingers due to not having to reset.

We may start using them for matches to save time and energy.

You're trying to stir a cold pot here, Bubba. You need to make more events, see the country, get out more.

Alston, the Dawg might have something here even though it's not on the boil yet. If the NRA can see fit to use swingers in the Nationals to
accomodate windy conditions then why not have that in the rules. And if
those swingers can be used in a National Tournament then why not for
long runs also at any other match ? Thought provoking!

Deleted.

Got a nibble, Dawg.

AJJ,

The questions in my initial post are to promote questioning and discussion of too what lengths the NRA competitive committee will go to promote their own agenda. They are more than willing to eliminate classes or equipment that does not have their interest or agenda forefront. Yet will more than bend, if not fabricate rules to further their agenda or interests. Are we to sit back and simply watch as the sanctioning body dictates rules and standards, and then makes a mockery of them when it suits their will? I think that what happened at the nationals was a travesty and feel that the situation needs further discussion by the true sanctioning body, the shooters themselves.

dryfire,

You have hit the preverbal nail on the head.

I am not here to promote animosity or discord but to ask simply why we tolerate such sub-par standards from an organization that we literally hand money over too every year to further our (the shooters) interest.

Dawg, I knew what you meant. And I shouldn't tease you for being a smartass while being one myself. I guess it's in our blood. Mine, anyway.
Perhaps if you had been there you would have something to offer in the "What They Should Have Done" Department. Or perhaps not. I was there and my vote would have been to at least draft spotters/scorers for each shooter while we shot swingers. The biggest problem with the swingers was that it was apparently not possible to accurately count the hits after the fact. I promise you the "swinger" system didn't work well, but the question is: "What's the alternative?"
That brings us full circle to the indisputable fact that, for about three hours, the targets would not stay on the rails. The wind was scouring the empty brass off the concrete slab. I've thought about the various, suggested ways to keep the regulation targets on the rails and don't think too much of any of them but agree that they might be better than what we tried. If you've got a suggestion, lay it on us.

AJJ,

My solution would have been to tape the animals to the rails in the normal position. Then proceed as a normal match and simply see which animals have a bullet mark on them. After confirmation of total bullet marks, score and repaint. If the animal is dislodged from rail, check for bullet mark, then tape it back in place and repaint. This solution would have rendered the old bullet mark on top of the other counting as one a non issue. Also the scorer could not discredit any mark as simply lead spatter. The solution to me, what ever it may have been, should have been a contingency all along this is not the first time they have had wind in Raton.

This is the jewell in the NRA silhouette crown, and this is how it is ran?

ajj wrote:Dawg, I knew what you meant. And I shouldn't tease you for being a smartass while being one myself. I guess it's in our blood. Mine, anyway.

You were teasing me? I couldn't tell

I am always in good company if you are in the crowd Mr. Jennings. And that my fine sir is the truth as I know it.

It's really disappointing when a sanctioning body behaves in a questionable manner. I don't know which would have been more
disconcerting for the competitors though, wind-blown targets or a target
that doesn't fall regardless of how it's hit. The tournament directors made a call and it may have been the wrong one but there was no doubt a
smoother match rather than perpetually setting targets or numerous
alibis called for insufficient targets.
Cheers

It was just one of those things, whatchamakallem, like, acts of God. The chickens stood up pretty well. Everything else was immediately blown down for a good two hours plus about an hour's worth of build up where it got more and more difficult to set rams and an hours worth of cool down while it got gradually better. All the while, everybody is facing a full day of shooting and hoping to hit the road for home as soon as possible at the end of the day. Time was of the essence.
The folks in charge conferred with each other and with the shooters who offered opinions. We tried a few angles that might have worked if the wind hadn't been so strong. Time was a'wasting. What was tried was tried in good faith. The beef seems to be about not having a better contingency plan in place. Seems to me that the only way to develop one is by experiments in shooting regulation targets in high wind. Maybe some of us can try that if we get (1) a promising idea and (2) plenty of time with high wind.
I wish the NRA paid more attention to competition shoters since it is, in fact, a major sanctioning body. I wish Greg Connor had a large staff and a larger budget. What he does with a handful of volunteers is pretty amazing.
High winds screw up all sorts of sporting events from time to time. I'm glad the big Balloon Festival was over because they wouldn't have had it Tuesday! I'm not saying we should ignore the possibility of doing better in the future but I am saying that there was no perfect solution to Tuesday's problem and I appreciate the folks who tried to keep things running. I know from first hand experience that some targets were scored with too many hits and some with too few. Some of those mistakes were extra frustrating, but they were made in good faith by people trying their best. It was a pain in the neck for all involved. I'm glad that I was just shooting.

Being there and seeing and hearing first hand what went on I can attest to the fact that taping the targets down would have taken less time than the system they employed and would have been more accurate. What it seemed to me was that Greg Connors was bound and determined to make the call and not accept anyone's advice. Several well qualified competitors approached him about it and he was adamant about it. I was disappointed in several aspects of the Nationals this year. The failure to put heads together to reach a solution during the windy part was one thing. Also, putting the lunch wagon down at the PPC range (they were having a match also) made it very hard to get lunch and have time to eat during the short lunch time. The program said that "there will be food service and beverage service available on the grounds". I guess they meant "somewhere on the 33,000 acre Whittington Center". Also Connor was very uncooperative on the last day of high power when it came to taking pictures of the awards ceremony. They had the awards table set up and he came out of the stat house and had it moved into half sun/half shade with an immovable bench in the way. When I objected the told me "If you think I'm standing out in the sun and handing these things out you're crazy". We had a few words and he and I finally came to the agreement that he is an asshole.....His word, not mine. So I sat in the shade with my friends and took only the National Champion photos.....So there won't be many High Power Silhouette award presentation photos available. My apologies to those who may have liked to have a photo of themselves.

The real high point was the good job Ernie Kuney did calling the match. That guy is smoooth.

Maybe I'm being too critical but those of us who travel to these events and are passionate about the sport make a huge investment of our dollars and time. Match fees for the nationals run 140 for Standard and Hunter Smallbore and 140 for High Power Standard and Hunter. Gas is out of sight, motel and meals really run the tab up. And the folks that traveled from Ireland and South Africa invested more than most of us. And then when we get there all we hear about is budget cuts, NRA award points instead of trophies. This just doesn't set real well with me.

Kitty

First of... Kitty, Thank God your OK it's been over a week since we heard from you. I was about ready to send a search party out looking for you.

On the National's... every year, when they are held at the NRA Whittington Center, I hear more and more complaints. That is one reason I will spend my hard earned money on one of the other fine run club's that put the Nationals on than to drive 1,800 miles to what is supposed to be our showcase and be totally disappointed. Nothing will kill a sport or event anymore than pi$$ poor planning or a closed mind group/individual that is running it instead of promoting the event and making it better. Right now they have the entry fees so high for what they offer it's getting hard to justify making the trip.

One way to cure it is vote with your dollars and everybody boycott the event when it's held at the Whittington Ctr. in New Mexico and pack the other events. Or... write the NRA ccompetition commitee and voice your concerns, that is the only way your dissatification will be heard. It's only venting here.

I'm still around.....Trip tired me out. Just now getting around to getting the pics from Raton on the computer. Will post a link to some, maybe tonight. Got some really good ones......Will be worth the wait....

Kitty

My son and I were fortunate this year to compete in the 2007 Smallbore Nationals at Raton. We are not normally able to shoot the Nationals because I usually cannot get Leave from work approved that week. The best thing about the Nationals was to meet and converse with very nice competitors from the Western part of the United States, Mexico and Ireland. The folks who run the Whittington Center are also very friendly and helpful. The rest of the experience was kind of a let down after shooting larger matchs that were not supposed to be as good as the "Nationals".
We have shot the Southern Nationals in Winnsboro, La. the first weekend in June ever since my son was old enough to survive three days at a Match. All of the following opinions result from my personal comparison between these two matchs which we were led to believe are the two premier events in Smallbore Silhouette. You may see things differently.
(1) We arrived a day early(Friday) to practice. Only Tello and Sanchez and a couple of other people were there practicing. People arrive 8 days early to practice for the Southern Nationals. The Southern Nationals hold an approved match the week before for folks to get a feel for the Match commands.
(2) The firing line cover at the Southern Nationals is wide enough to have the rifle racks and spotting scopes under the cover instead of out in the elements like at the Whittington Center. If it rains you do not have a problem.
(3) At monthly matchs at Winnsboro the wind has blown so hard that I once had my rifle blown off the rack. Someone was standing right by the rack and caught it. The targets were not being blown off the rails even that day because huge steel backing plates are directly behind the animals and block the wind off of the targets. The plates are painted green also and allow you to call your misses more accurately than dirt.
(4) With hard chicken hits we have had chickens vibrate off the rails at Winnsboro but the Whittington rails seemed more vibration proof. We liked that.
(5) When we arrived at Whittington we were surprised at how small the match was. There were not nearly as many Nationals competitors as the Southern Nationals. Usually there are seven Relays in the morning and seven relays in the afternoon at Winnsboro as opposed to four at the 2007 Nationals.
(6) The Winnsboro Gun Club can run seven relays in less time than the four took at the 2007 Nationals. This is due to very fast, experienced target setters and Match Director giving the line commands. The same team runs the Match every year.
(7) At Whittington, all the Chickens are on the right and all the Rams are on the left. At Winnsboro, all the chickens are in the middle of the range. Then the pigs, turkeys and rams are split off equally right and left in a pyramid or triangle shape. The Winnsboro stat folks usually put your relay on the right side one time and the left side the next time. This way the competitor never has to walk the full length of the firing line making the match more efficient.
(8) At the 2007 Nationals during the inspection process both of our rifles and scopes were banged around on the bench where the jig was to the point we immediately went to the chicken bench and rechecked our zeroes. Every member of the rifle inspection team at the Southern Nationals actively works six days a week in the gun industry and handles our rifles with great care and respect regardless of the appearance of the rifle.
(9) When you receive your entry packet at the Southern Nationals your scorecards are completely filled out. You do nothing but compete. At the 2007 Nationals you received several sheets of stickers and a blank generic scorebook. We basically had to process and fill out our own scoresheets for twelve relays. This took awhile.
(10) There is a feeling of integrity and honesty at the Southern Nationals. Your spotter scores for you and the shooter verifies the correct score before signing the scorecard. The scorecards are then placed on clipboards on the firing line posts and runners pick the scorecards up and take them to the stat office. Line officers are spot checking the scorecards on the posts just to verify correct scoring. The volunteer scorekeepers at Raton were great and our particular scorekeepers were very competent even when we were shooting swingers. They recorded our swinger hits very precisely on every occasion. It appeared that the match officials did not trust the scorekeepers as much as the competitors did and had to verify every swinger hit themselves. What purpose did the score keepers serve if every hit had to be "reverified"?
(11) The folks who can really shoot well win great prizes at the Southern Nationals. Folks who cannot shoot well also win really great prizes at the Southern Nationals. The Class Winners of Hunter Rifle at the 2007 Southern Nationals won a Leupold 6.5-20 EFR scope. The class winners of Smallbore won a Burris 8-32 scope. In AA and AAA there were between 16 and 18 places given prizes. Where else can the winner of B win a prize like a Leupold 6.5-20 EFR? At many Southern Nationals we wonder how we are going to fit all the prizes in the van for the trip home. My son has won five rifles since he has been competing at Winnsboro. At the Southern Nationals there are prizes given out all day long every day in drawings for just being a competitor. There are special drawings like the receipt drawing and the pick of the litter drawing. The receipt drawing works like this. If you buy something in Winnsboro write your name on the back of the receipt and at the end of the match David McClemore draws the receipts out of the box and reads out the winners and what they bought in Winnsboro. Be careful what you buy. The pick of the litter drawing has many tables full of prizes. When the names are drawn for the prizes, the winners can choose any prize on the tables. Prizes are given away in so many ways just for competing it is impossible to list them all.
(12) The match fees are about the same for the Nationals and Southern Nationals but during the Southern Nationals you are served five meals during the match and the target setter fees are included in the entry fees. There are no tip buckets passed around for anything. The Tony Chachere Cooking team serves a seafood meal on Friday night. Breakfast and lunch are served on Match days.
(13) Housing seemed readily available at Raton. We stayed in Competitor Housing and it was really economical. There are so many Competitors the first week in June at Winnsboro that Hotel rooms are booked years in advance.
(14) The advice of experienced Match Directors from very windy areas all over America was ignored at the Nationals. There were better, faster, fairer ways to deal with the problem of wind blowing the targets off the rails but that advice was ignored.

In summary the Nationals were run as well as could be expected for a group of volunteers who do not run matchs on a consistent, frequent basis. We learned a lot and had fun but for us it ranks far down the list of must make Matchs like the Southern Nationals, the Springbreakout Regionals, Sunshine Classic, MidSouth Classic, Coast Rifle and Pistol Club monthlies, Jerry Tureau's Gonzales, LA. Matchs and the Magnolia Rifle and Pistol monthly matchs.

Now, do not get angry. This is just one man's opinion and by the way for me I shot extremely well in that wind the third morning. I was only down 3 animals off my normal score.

Bobby R. Huddleston