Technically There Are No National Matches

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atomicbrh
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Technically There Are No National Matches

Post by atomicbrh »

There are no National metallic silhouette matches in the United States and never have been.
Competitors from around the world have been allowed to compete in American "National" Championships and take national championship awards back to their own countries. Our National matches should be called "International" or "World" championships because that is what they are. When you win a NRA national championship, you have actually won a International championship against all comers.
That being said continue these matches. Call them what they really.
Then in addition to these International Championships, hold a true National Championship that is open only to Americans with U.S. citizenship and a permanent United States residence.
Again, we will have some "know it all" here reply, "let's just give the high American a separate high American championship award if an American does not win the overall championship".
No, America needs a real National Championship for Americans on different dates and a different location.
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Re: Technically There Are No National Matches

Post by thauglor »

That is as dumb as calling the baseball champions World champions when we are the only ones that play the game.

But, you go ahead and plan the match and we will attend. It is very easy to tell others to put in the hard work of hosting a match.

And really? You really want to limit how many people can attend our overflowing and full to capacity matches?
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Re: Technically There Are No National Matches

Post by dustinflint »

atomicbrh wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:34 am There are no National metallic silhouette matches in the United States and never have been.
Competitors from around the world have been allowed to compete in American "National" Championships and take national championship awards back to their own countries. Our National matches should be called "International" or "World" championships because that is what they are. When you win a NRA national championship, you have actually won a International championship against all comers.
That being said continue these matches. Call them what they really.
Then in addition to these International Championships, hold a true National Championship that is open only to Americans with U.S. citizenship and a permanent United States residence.
Again, we will have some "know it all" here reply, "let's just give the high American a separate high American championship award if an American does not win the overall championship".
No, America needs a real National Championship for Americans on different dates and a different location.
This is "technically" dead wrong. A national championship, or state championship, or whatever championship is not defined by the competitors that are allowed to compete. If that were the case any state or regional match that allowed international competitors would be a "world championship."

A championship event is organized by a sponsor, recognized by a sanctioning body, and operated with competitors qualified under the rules of the event. (That's why there is only ONE "national championship" in each event and it will be that way until some additional sanctioning body comes along and designates its own "national championship" - like we have in 3P shooting and other events)

In our sport, the NRA (sanctioning body) designates an event as the United States national championship and the rules of the event allow international competitors to compete and win our national championship - just like the U.S. Open in golf and tennis and the national championships in Mexico, Canada, Australia, Ireland, France, etc.

The presence of the best shooters in the WORLD is what makes these events great and such an extreme challenge and honor to win.

Dustin
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Re: Technically There Are No National Matches

Post by atomicbrh »

I cannot hold a National Match.
The closest Smallbore Silhouette ranges for us are 3 hours away and those are small ranges.

Just because something has been done a certain way in the past does not mean something new cannot be added.
NRA Rule 1.7 (c) (d) (f) and Section 2 as in 2.1 and 2.1.1(pages 2 and 3) specifically define this type of match:


1.7 Types of Matches

(c) Open Match - A match open to anyone, except that if so stated in
the program an open match may be limited to one or any combination of the following: (a) United States citizens; (b) members of the
National Rifle Association of America; and/or (c) with respect to
non-U.S. citizens, persons who are members in good, standing of
their respective National Shooting Federations or Associations. (See
Rule 2.1.1.)
(d) Restricted Match - A match in which the competition is limited to
specified groups, i.e., Juniors, Women, Police, Civilians, Veterans,
etc.; or specified classes, i.e., Master, AAA, AA, A, B, etc.
2. ELIGIBILITY AND CATEGORIES OF
COMPETITORS
Eligibility and Categories of Competitors - The conditions of a match
shall prescribe the eligibility and categories of competitors, teams or individuals in accordance with Rule 1.6 and/or the definitions contained in Section 2.
Any limitations of eligibility to compete must be stated in the match program.
2.1 Members of the National Rifle Association - Any individual member
in good standing including Benefactors, Patrons, Endowment, Life, Annual,
Associate, Non-Resident, and Junior members.
2.1.1 Non-US. Citizens - Non-U.S. citizens may compete in any NRA
Sanctioned Tournament, unless further restrictions are imposed by conditions
stated in the program.
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Re: Technically There Are No National Matches

Post by atomicbrh »

[quote=dustinflint post_id=105491 time=1618416578 user_id=28267]
[quote=atomicbrh post_id=105487 time=1618407250 user_id=90]
There are no National metallic silhouette matches in the United States and never have been.
Competitors from around the world have been allowed to compete in American "National" Championships and take national championship awards back to their own countries. Our National matches should be called "International" or "World" championships because that is what they are. When you win a NRA national championship, you have actually won a International championship against all comers.
That being said continue these matches. Call them what they really.
Then in addition to these International Championships, hold a true National Championship that is open only to Americans with U.S. citizenship and a permanent United States residence.
Again, we will have some "know it all" here reply, "let's just give the high American a separate high American championship award if an American does not win the overall championship".
No, America needs a real National Championship for Americans on different dates and a different location.
[/quote]

This is "technically" dead wrong. A national championship, or state championship, or whatever championship is not defined by the competitors that are allowed to compete. If that were the case any state or regional match that allowed international competitors would be a "world championship."

A championship event is organized by a sponsor, recognized by a sanctioning body, and operated with competitors qualified under the rules of the event. (That's why there is only ONE "national championship" in each event and it will be that way until some additional sanctioning body comes along and designates its own "national championship" - like we have in 3P shooting and other events)

In our sport, the NRA (sanctioning body) designates an event as the United States national championship and the rules of the event allow international competitors to compete and win our national championship - just like the U.S. Open in golf and tennis and the national championships in Mexico, Canada, Australia, Ireland, France, etc.

The presence of the best shooters in the WORLD is what makes these events great and such an extreme challenge and honor to win.

Dustin
[/quote]

Funny you should mention U.S. Open. That is a good name for the international match. U.S. Open Metallic Silhouette Championships.
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Re: Technically There Are No National Matches

Post by lijeboy »

atomicbrh wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:57 am I cannot hold a National Match.
The closest Smallbore Silhouette ranges for us are 3 hours away and those are small ranges.
Sure you can. I live nine hours from Raton, but put on national championships in 2018 and 2019, and helped in 2017. What you mean is, you're not willing. But that doesn't stop you from telling others how to do it and being critical of their efforts, does it now, Bobby?
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Re: Technically There Are No National Matches

Post by dustinflint »

The way I see it there are basically two types of people: Those who make excuses for why they can’t get something done, and those who get things done despite the challenges.

Arguing over what is a national championship and what’s not or crying about the NRA or low attendance or lack of industry support, etc. is not going to move the sport forward. What really helps are shooters that attend and support championship matches in their region and help facilitate championship matches by stepping up and doing the work.

It’s easy to sit at a keyboard and tell the go-getters what they’re doing wrong...

I’m happy to hear new ideas and even criticisms, IN PERSON, AT A MATCH. You know, where are the people that really care about the sport hang out.

Dustin

Note: complaining about Highpower Rams not falling with 6 mm calibers is perfectly justified and not considered “crying.”
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Re: Technically There Are No National Matches

Post by lijeboy »

dustinflint wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:44 pmNote: complaining about Highpower Rams not falling with 6 mm calibers is perfectly justified and not considered “crying.”
Now that is funny. :lol:
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Re: Technically There Are No National Matches

Post by atomicbrh »

[quote=lijeboy post_id=105495 time=1618441626 user_id=28322]
[quote=atomicbrh post_id=105492 time=1618419449 user_id=90]
I cannot hold a National Match.
The closest Smallbore Silhouette ranges for us are 3 hours away and those are small ranges.[/quote]

Sure you can. I live nine hours from Raton, but put on national championships in 2018 and 2019, and helped in 2017. What you mean is, you're not willing. But that doesn't stop you from telling others how to do it and being critical of their efforts, does it now, Bobby?
[/quote]
For the record.
I will step up and be the next Match Director for the National or International Matches at Raton for Smallbore, Smallbore Hunter, Highpower and Highpower Hunter. Those are the only disciplines along with air rifle that I know enough about. We live 16 hours from Raton.
To start promoting the match and setting up the personnel, I need to know the details of the contract between the Whittington Center, the NRA and the Match Director:
(1) What is my budget?
(2) How much money does the Whittington Center demand for using their ranges?
(3) Can the NRA or Whittington Center reimburse the person that calls the match and the workers, line officers who work the matches for their travel and lodging?
(4) Besides the workers just breaking even on expenses, can they actually be paid a salary for working the matches?
(5) I want to fly in a USPSA/Steel Challenge computer guy from Nashville to run the stat office. Is that allowed? We are not friends. The guy hates my guts but is a whiz with match stats.
(6) I am on a small pension. I do not want a salary but will the NRA or Whittington reimburse my and Julie's travel expenses so that we do not have any out of pocket expenses? We travel cheap.
(7) What is the overall budget? How much money do I need to try to raise from sponsors? If a NRA employee has done that in the past, they have failed.
(8) Can we give away smaller prizes donated by sponsors all throughout the match?
(9) Will NRA or Whittington pay for any match caller I want?
(10) Can I have Steve Wooster and whoever he chooses to assist him do the pre-match inspections?
(11) Can we set the Highpower targets so that the feet are fully on the rail? Back of foot against back of rail?
(12) Does the NRA have to supplement the competitor's entry fees to the Whittington Center or is it the other way around as in the Whittington sends money back to the NRA?
(13) How are the competitors' entry fees distributed? How can we lower the competitor's' costs?
(14) Can this match be moved from Raton to St. Louis, Missouri?
(15) Do I negotiate the contract between the Whittington Center and the NRA or is it between the 3 of us simultaneously?
(16) All this list amounts to is what am I allowed to do and what am I responsible for out of my budget?

I have directed and promoted race tracks, street races (officially approved by city councils), and matches along with a regular job.
If I promote an event where people pay significant entry fees to compete, there are no hidden details.
Everything is out in the open. Everybody knows how much everybody else was reimbursed.
(Aside: I have sweated, bled from cuts, broken bones, cut steel, welded, moved dirt, built rifle racks, cut range grass and string trimmed ranges to run and promote silhouette in my area just as many of you have in your area. I tried for 7 straight years at the public range and many more years after that on our personal range to get Silhouette going. So Do Not say I have not done anything. Now, we do not show up to all the matches because we simply do not have time or money for that. Mrs. atomicbrh has no vacation time due to a buyout.)
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Re: Technically There Are No National Matches

Post by dustinflint »

Bobby don’t take it so personally. You’re my buddy; I know your contribution and I like you. I just don't necessarily agree with everything you say.

If you’re going to throw out criticism expect to get some thrown back.

Also it sounds like you’re missing the forest for the trees a bit. Running a big match is not running the federal government.

Dustin
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Re: Technically There Are No National Matches

Post by cedestech »

dustinflint wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:16 pm Bobby don’t take it so personally. You’re my buddy; I know your contribution and I like you. I just don't necessarily agree with everything you say.

If you’re going to throw out criticism expect to get some thrown back.

Also it sounds like you’re missing the forest for the trees a bit. Running a big match is not running the federal government.

Dustin
Jesus if more people could go there today....

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Re: Technically There Are No National Matches

Post by atomicbrh »

[quote=dustinflint post_id=105501 time=1618456610 user_id=28267]
Bobby don’t take it so personally. You’re my buddy; I know your contribution and I like you. I just don't necessarily agree with everything you say.

If you’re going to throw out criticism expect to get some thrown back.

Also it sounds like you’re missing the forest for the trees a bit. Running a big match is not running the federal government.

Dustin
[/quote]

Yes. You and I disagree on many things but we are friends, do not hold grudges against each other and do not bring up arguments from the past.
One of the greatest moments in my silhouette career was when you a multi-time National Champion sought me out and shook my hand on the second day after the 2019 Smallbore Hunter Rifle Match. I will never forget that. I know it is not running the federal government but in my past interactions with the sanctioning body, it has proven that I cannot trust it. Thus every detail with them must be put in actual writing not e-mails and not texts.

My original post was about a simple concept of giving the National events the accurate name they deserved. It is a open event to the world.
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Re: Technically There Are No National Matches

Post by DAVIDMAGNUM »

As far as the National Matches I do not know if foreign competitors are allowed to win trophies/championship awards (in silhouette). I have seen National handgun/practical matches where foreign competitors were not eligible to win the match .

I live in Maryland and have competed in the Pennsylvania State Lever Action Silhouette Match. While I could receive pins and awards for personal accomplishments, I was not eligible for the Match Winner. Maybe someone that knows can chime in about the Nationals.
Either way, that is not why I traveled to Bradford or Ridgway. Recognition of a good day or weekend of shooting is fine. But a good day or weekend of shooting a game I love with friends I only see a few times a year? That is fantastic!
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Re: Technically There Are No National Matches

Post by jbmarshtx »

lijeboy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:54 pm
dustinflint wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:44 pmNote: complaining about Highpower Rams not falling with 6 mm calibers is perfectly justified and not considered “crying.”
Now that is funny. :lol:
Except when it isn't. Like at the end of a long 2-day match.
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Re: Technically There Are No National Matches

Post by cedestech »

jbmarshtx wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:36 am
lijeboy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:54 pm
dustinflint wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:44 pmNote: complaining about Highpower Rams not falling with 6 mm calibers is perfectly justified and not considered “crying.”
Now that is funny. :lol:
Except when it isn't. Like at the end of a long 2-day match.
=))
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