What works on Rams?

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SqHunter
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Re: What works on Rams?

Post by SqHunter »

Emietenkorte wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:13 pm
SqHunter wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:51 am
jbmarshtx wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:54 am This was posted a few threads down by ErichM, who also shoots a BR.

"I use 29 grains of Vihtavuori N140 powder with Berger 6mm 95 Grain VLD Target bullets for the chickens, pigs and turkeys, and 30 grains of N140 with Berger 115 Grain VLD Target bullets for the Rams."

I've shot a 6.5 creedmoor and 6.5 grendel. I simplifying so I'm using only grendel moving forward. We have a newborn, so I don't have time to dork with 2 rifles. I'm only 4-5 years into silhouette and a 2-3 into reloading.

I've rang rams with both of them, and I probably average better than 80% knockdowns for the ones that I hit. The creedmoor has a 24" barrel, and I shoot 139 scenars over ~39 grains H4350. The grendel has a 26" 8-twist, and I shoot 130 bergers over ~28 grains H4895. I don't know velocities on either. The grendel has less capacity than the 6Br.

I thought that the idea of the 6Br and trend to smaller cartridges was that you pick up more CPT, so it was ok to lose a ram or 8?

I am pretty sure Erich and Cathy are the reasons my smith chose the 6BR for my rifle, but it does not work for me. I can't afford to take time off or work and then travel 4000 miles for a match and the rifle not work. You would not want to go on a once in a lifetime Elk hunt with a .223, would you?

Once again I ask, what works 100% of the time?


That's exactly what Cathy and I do... We travel thousands of miles to a match with our 6BRs knowing full well we may lose some rams (knowing it MAY happen and expecting it to happen are different things) but it still seems to do pretty well. As Mr. Marsh stated, I use Berger 115gr. VLD Target bullets traveling at 2725fps on rams in my hunter rifle and yes it does have the occasional ring, but so does my Standard Rifle in 6.5x47 Lapua with 139gr. Scenars. I am flying home from the St. Louis High Power Regional right now, (airplane wi-fi) in which I rang eight of what I am told are the heaviest rams on any range. I also rang five with my 6.5x47. There were people shooting 7-08s with bullets over 160 gr. and they rang some too. I really enjoy shooting my 6BR especially over a 120 round course of fire, it keeps you from feeling it the next day.

To answer your question, what works 100% of the time... no caliber that is allowed within the rules will work 100% of the time. It's a balance between recoil and target damage. We don't want a lot of either. There are a lot variables that are out of our control when it comes to rams, (weight, wind, how they're set, etc.) and I don't want to spend time and energy worrying about those. I focus on hitting as many targets as possible with the expectation that they will go down, If they don't then oh well. Get the 115gr. bullets and get them moving at 2725fps and have fun!
If you are ringing some with the 6.5, and you have observed them rang with the 7mm-08, then would you recommend a 308 and 165s? I believe that would be the next step up. Thanks!
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Re: What works on Rams?

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jbmarshtx wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:19 am Image
Your just wrong... LOL.
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Re: What works on Rams?

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Squinty LIKES cedestech and jbmarshtx's comments!
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Re: What works on Rams?

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Can't answer the question as to what works 100% of the time, as I don't believe it exists, short of something no one wants to shoot 40+ times. I can state that this past Sunday, June 13, at Ben Avery Shooting Range in Phoenix, I watched John Mullins knock down 10 of 10 rams with a 6 BR. I realize that Ben Avery doesn't have the most difficult rams, but they are not the easiest either. I have rang rams on the banks he was shooting with a 7-08 and a 6.5x47. I was spotting for John. His hits went from center of animal, to low chest, to low stomach and flank. Only one went down slowly. He is shooting 115 Bergers over VV 540 at about 2740 fps. He missed 2 chickens and 2 turkeys, cleaning pigs and rams for a total of 36 out of 40. Dan
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Re: What works on Rams?

Post by Emietenkorte »

SqHunter wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:16 am
Emietenkorte wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:13 pm
SqHunter wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:51 am


I am pretty sure Erich and Cathy are the reasons my smith chose the 6BR for my rifle, but it does not work for me. I can't afford to take time off or work and then travel 4000 miles for a match and the rifle not work. You would not want to go on a once in a lifetime Elk hunt with a .223, would you?

Once again I ask, what works 100% of the time?


That's exactly what Cathy and I do... We travel thousands of miles to a match with our 6BRs knowing full well we may lose some rams (knowing it MAY happen and expecting it to happen are different things) but it still seems to do pretty well. As Mr. Marsh stated, I use Berger 115gr. VLD Target bullets traveling at 2725fps on rams in my hunter rifle and yes it does have the occasional ring, but so does my Standard Rifle in 6.5x47 Lapua with 139gr. Scenars. I am flying home from the St. Louis High Power Regional right now, (airplane wi-fi) in which I rang eight of what I am told are the heaviest rams on any range. I also rang five with my 6.5x47. There were people shooting 7-08s with bullets over 160 gr. and they rang some too. I really enjoy shooting my 6BR especially over a 120 round course of fire, it keeps you from feeling it the next day.

To answer your question, what works 100% of the time... no caliber that is allowed within the rules will work 100% of the time. It's a balance between recoil and target damage. We don't want a lot of either. There are a lot variables that are out of our control when it comes to rams, (weight, wind, how they're set, etc.) and I don't want to spend time and energy worrying about those. I focus on hitting as many targets as possible with the expectation that they will go down, If they don't then oh well. Get the 115gr. bullets and get them moving at 2725fps and have fun!
If you are ringing some with the 6.5, and you have observed them rang with the 7mm-08, then would you recommend a 308 and 165s? I believe that would be the next step up. Thanks!
I would recommend shooting a caliber that will help you knock over 75% of the the targets with more accuracy than focus on what may or may not be more effective on only 25% of the targets. I would stick with the 6BR, I know I will. The top silhouette shooters aren't shooting 308 and 7mm-08 anymore. They are shooting 6.5's and 6's.
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Re: What works on Rams?

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I thought there were specs for the weight of the high power rams, especially. The St. Louis Club is always being singled out for having the heaviest rams. They've got the funds. Why don't they get new animals?

Or they could use Johnson's Paste Wax. Put it on the rail and the bottom of the foot, and I'll bet they go down a lot easier.

We had this problem years ago at the Capitol City Gun Club after we installed new stands for the Rams at 200 meters for lever action. It was so bad guys were using 45-70's to effectively knock them down.

A shooter showed up with Johnson's past wax, applied it, and the problem was solved. If you hit the ram, it couldn.t wait to get of the stand!

I haven't seen a rule against this.
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Re: What works on Rams?

Post by JohnHenry »

I thought there were specs for the weight of the high power rams, especially. The St. Louis Club is always being singled out for having the heaviest rams. They've got the funds. Why don't they get new animals?

Or they could use Johnson's Paste Wax. Put it on the rail and the bottom of the foot, and I'll bet they go down a lot easier.

We had this problem years ago at the Capitol City Gun Club after we installed new stands for the Rams at 200 meters for lever action. It was so bad guys were using 45-70's to effectively knock them down.

A shooter showed up with Johnson's past wax, applied it, and the problem was solved. If you hit the ram, it couldn.t wait to get of the stand!

I haven't seen a rule against this.
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Re: What works on Rams?

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JohnHenry wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:05 amOr they could use Johnson's Paste Wax. Put it on the rail and the bottom of the foot, and I'll bet they go down a lot easier.
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Re: What works on Rams?

Post by sdwooster »

What we need is ranges to use a system so the rams will fall over. Years ago Bill Kiser Sr. Went up to ram line to figure out why they fall over so hard. By using a spring gauge we found the problem. We use rail road iron. The flat part is wider than the feet of the rams. So putting the ram forward on the rails it took alot of pressure to get them to move. But by putting the feet even with back edge of the rail they fell easier. Because when they are hit the foot slides back and dont have to rock over the edge of the foot. So I drilled some holes in the rail and put 1/4" bolts in for the feet to be set too. Making sure feet where even with back edge of the rail. We still get a few that dont go, but at least they are all set the same. We also try to make sure they dont get the bow in them. Makes it easier for the target setters, just put them on and slide into place.
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Re: What works on Rams?

Post by RBriscoe »

squinty_shooter wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:47 am I Agree with Merlin. We need more consistency in ram weight/rail dimensions/placement.
JMHO
Rail dimensions aren’t the biggest issue, although there are some rail materials that are problematic.

The nominal weight of a ram is supposedly 54# when cut to the correct pattern size from the correct thickness steel.

The feet are frequently a problem though. If oversized feet are involved, a ram can be quite difficult to knock over. Also, if they are bent and the ram leans forward toward the shooter a tough ram is the result.

If the ram is bowed from being shot too much on the same side, especially with 500 gr BPCR bullets, a tough ram is the result.

If the ram is set forward from the back of the rail a center hit will have to push the ram back rather than toppling it.

If the rail leans forward toward the shooter, a tough ram is the result, but welding level pads of the correct size for the foot can help.

When shooting a “light” cartridge at rams, hitting them in the rump and or high back can help. If you get the rear foot off the rail, he’s yours.

I agree with the suggestion to try some other bullets before giving up on your 6 BR.

Some ranges are simply tougher than others, be it because the wind is behind the Rams or any number of reasons. Depending upon which ranges you shoot at and how often you may want to try one of the numerous 6.5mm cartridges or even a 7-08.

You can have a ‘smith set up your rifle as a switch barrel so that you can choose what you want to shoot at any given range.

No matter what cartridge you choose you will lose Rams some of the time.
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Re: What works on Rams?

Post by Snake »

I offer these observations for the 'ram' question:
a. There are 30 other targets;
b. Our rams are set as required on pads the size of each foot and the rails are rigid (set in concrete) and the range faces due north; they are cut on a plasma table from 3/8ths T-1 or Ar400 with feet as per NRA dimensions;
c. they have fallen to 7TCUs, 6BRs, 7BRs, 250 Savage and 7mm PPCs. They have also resisted 190 30 cals, 168 7's, every manner of 6 mm and 6.5
d. If the wind from the north-northwest is above 5mph the rams don't want to leave their comfortable spot (yet standing in front of them they are very easy to push over)
e. A fast bullet does not work as well as a slower projectile...apparently if the projectile explodes on contact your ram stays home
f. The trade-off appears to be between the optimum velocity for accuracy and the one for ram removal;
g. Its an outdoor game and sometimes things just don't work out.....
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Re: What works on Rams?

Post by RBriscoe »

I'll add this to your comment, Snake.

Getting beat up becomes less enjoyable with age and I'll take a greater risk of ringing some rams for keeping the game fun and enjoyable.

Some bullets will "blow up" if driven too fast leaving a large splotch, like a paint ball mark, on the target. That's a pretty good indicator that a lot of the energy of the bullet is not being transferred to the ram.

Ditto to the outdoor sport. My home range is one of the few that we shoot almost due south at the rams. When the wind is out of the southeast the rams can be challenging. I rang a lot of them with .308 190gr MKs before I changed to something more pleasant to shoot.
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Re: What works on Rams?

Post by 375Short »

You have gotten consistent support for the 6mm but with a heavier bullet than you had a bad experience with. My experience isn’t close to the lengthy experience of folks that already responded, but - I had a new 6GT while we where in Raton, I loaded it at the recommended velocity of 2730-50’ish with 112gr Nosler’s. I was at the bench in the center of the HP silhouette range and someone had left a bank of rams farthest to the right. I hit them all center and they all fell with surprising authority. I have no idea how they where set and the small example proves little except it worked at that time. I think your wrestling with a couple things that we gun folks suffer from often. In your experience it let you down and you don’t like it anymore. That is reason enough to ignore that the little 6mm’s are accumulating a lengthy track record of success. With very specific bullet weights at a very specific velocity spectrum.

Follow your hart. There are some heavy, very high BC .338 bullets on the market. They could be loaded at very modest velocity in the 338 federal and that should result in a relatively mild recoil. On paper this results in plenty of oomph for Rams. I’m willing to wager some rams will occasionally survive and although the recoil may be fairly mild it won’t be mild compared to little 6mm or 6.5mm’s. Over time you will average higher scores with less recoil. Or maybe you will start the next trend of big slow .338’s.

Gas, food and reloading components are all expensive and scarce. Shoot what makes you happy, life is to short to do otherwise. Most importantly, not listening to your wife can have repercussions far exceeding a few lost rams.

Man this was an old thread that came back to life.
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Re: What works on Rams?

Post by lone ringer »

Hello everyone, I have been shooting HP silhouettes since 1978 when I was 27 years old, this year in a few days those numbers will reverse. In those days when I started most people were shooting .308 rifles and a few other calibers including the 30-06. The rams have always kept us honest and we knew from the start that we had to use enough power on our cartridges to knock down the rams consistently. I used to shoot so many matches in a year plus a lot of practice that it was not unusual for me to have to get a new barrel on my rifle (I only had one HP rifle). At the end of 1983 I had to look for alternative calibers do to a broken cheek bone on the right side of my face and that was when I started ringing a lot of rams with a 7-08 and mild loads but I really did not have a choice because I wanted to keep shooting. In those days there were no VDL bullets to try on smaller less powerful cartridges, the go to bullets were the 30 cal 168 Sierra HPBT and the 7mm 168 Sierra or 162g Hornady. If we did not want to ring rams using the 168g we used 180s, 190s and 200s. I understand that as we get older we develop health problems and we don't want to deal with a lot of recoil. I've had shoulder problems at least three times in the last 20 years or so, but I am still at it trying to hit those rams with a variety of 6.5 mm rifles and 140 or heavier bullets.

In the last five years or so I attended a couple of "World Championships" in Hermosillo and Saltillo, Mexico and in both instances they had problems with their brand new Rams, they would not go down reliably or not at all with some calibers the shooters had. What was the solution in both cases? The organizers decided to count hits on the rams (any hit counted). What did some of the shooters do? They used their short range ammo to shoot rams since all the hits counted.
I would hate for us to go that route simple because the rams don't go over with the calibers and bullets we choose to use.

As a note of interest for those that have not been in the sport as long as me, know that in the 80's and 90's the 308 and the 7-08 were considered mild recoiling cartridges that even women and kids used.
Karen Monez shot the highest score at the 1977 NRA nationals using a .308, her score did not count because her rifle stock was protested and disallowed (several times), although she was allowed to shoot outside the competition. On the years of 1981, 1983 and 1985, Marguerite Everheart won the HP nationals using a .308. In 1995 a 12 year old Mexican kid named Pedro Rueda won the HP nationals at Ridgway using a 7-08. I can keep naming women that have won the HP nationals without using a 6mmBR.
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Re: What works on Rams?

Post by chickenhater »

Started out using a 308, and still shoot it from time to time, but I've experienced ringers with it as well. If its calm rams will fall to my 260 with 123gr MKs, but if there's a head wind even the 155 sierra Palma match bullets, out of the 308, wont move them. I guess the point being, as previously stated, conditions are luck of the draw so I wouldnt place too much emphasis on what happens at the ram line. Since I dont ever recall ringing a ram with the 420gr BPCR loads, I'd say It is possuble that enough power will take them regardless of conditions, but who would want to deal with that kinda recoil during a match... a 338... seriously!?!?
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