HP Single shot or repeater question

[Bob259]

If you were having a new HP rifle built for hunter class and you had one of the custom actions built (like most based off a Remington 700 design) and it was in the single shot configuration is that acceptable, or does it have to be a repeater?

I know in most cases single loading is preferred over a magazine, is it also this way in HP silhouette?

[lesterf]

I asked Greg C. a similar question regarding single shot bolt action rifles for hunter rifle. His response was "if it came from the factory as a single shot, it was legal. However it is not permitted to modify a factory repeater action to single shot. "
I'm not sure if a "custom action" would be viewed any differently.

[carl425]

My rifle is built on a Rem 40x clone Lawton Machine action. Greg Conner has examined it and declared it legal for hunter.

[Bob Mc Alice]

The rules concerning HP hunting rifles have been greatly watered down over the last ten years to accomidate shooter requests and demands to be more flexible on what constitutes a hunting rifle. Gone are the days when you had to use a box stock factory rifle. A look at a 1997 rules book looks nothing like the most current 2005 with the 2007 rule change on stock dimensions to allow the use of Pharr style stocks. Not that long ago, custom made hunting rifles were prohibited in competition. I have read and re-read the current rules concerning single shot rifles. Quote from current rule book 2005( 3.1.1):"With the exception of single shot rifles, all other types must be repeating rifles, which shall be fired by loading all cartridges from the magazine or clip into the chamber." That's it. No other words describing single shots. Rule 3.1.1(d) "Rifles must be equipped with a functional safety"still applies. Carl is permitted to use his custom SINGLE SHOT DESIGNED action in competition. Lester is also correct. You can't glue in a single shot adapter tray to a repeater action and call it a single shot hunter gun.......at least for now.

[Bob259]

That was my concern, knowing how the rules have been applied in the past. When I see the custom action written as a Remington drop in 'in either single shot or repeater' configuration I didn't want the rule applied saying 'well the Remington action isa repeater so your single shot is not legal' at that point you would see a grown man cry, more so after I told the better half 'guess what I needed another new action'.

I like the fact with a single shot I would not have to worry about a problem in chambering the next round and possibly damaging the bullet or seating depth.

[Bob Mc Alice]

Chambering and damage are not a real concern. All my repeaters feed smoothly. One advantage to a single shot is no magazine box COAL restrictions. It's kind of funny the way HPHR has evolved over the years. When it was sanctioned back in the early 80's , it was box stock factory guns and chamberings only. It was meant for the average guy wanting to compete in HP silhouette to be able to use a common hunting rifle without having to spend big $$ on a tricked out heavy gun. It seems to be doing a 180 degree turn. People (me included) are now spending big money to put together customized hunter rifles. But if I were going to spend upwards of two grand on a bolt action hunting rifle, it sure as hell will hold more than one shot, and be chambered in .300 RUM.

[Silo65]

At the risk of being castrated, a Hunter gun using a Remington or other rifle capable of being loaded from the top, can be single loaded during a match as long as each round is loaded into the magazine and then stroked into the chamber. I do this because the OAL of the 260 with Scenars touching the rifling does not allow insertion of more than one loaded cartridge into the box. The nose of a single cartridge in the box rests on the loading ramp and the OAL doesn

[Bob Mc Alice]

Silo65, you are probably legal in loading one cartridge at a time thru the magazine as the rules are currently written. The 2006 change in the rulebook 3.1.1.(f) states: "Magazines may not be loaded with more than five rounds. During the match, all cartridges must be loaded into the chamber from the magazine." Exception:" During a shoot off, single cartridge loading may be used at the direction of the range officer." This rule as currently written is still open to interpretation. The rulebook from 1997 specifically states:"All magazines must be loaded to capacity. Magazines not capable of holding five cartridges may be reloaded as required". At this years nationals the question came up, and we were all told that magazines must be filled to capacity, that is what ever capacity worked in your gun. Maybe a call to Mr. Conner to clarify this rule should be made and if needed added to the next rulebook revision. My own feeling is that this rule is still in effect and the wording should not have been left out of the current book. I tried to get a hold of Lee Oneil (silhouette board member) on this , but he is out of town.

[Silo65]

BOB MC ALICE

Thanks for the reply, it was exactly what I was looking for. Need to get an interpretation in writing from G. Connor before the nationals or change the OAL. Problem is that 139 scenars don't like to feed thru the magazine near 2.80", so I would have to shorten considerably. Just another reason to rechamber to 6.5x47. I figure I still have at least 1000 rounds of life left in the current barrel and didn't want to rechamber until after next season.

You're right, full capacity is in the 1996 rulebook I have. It's gone from the 2003 version, so it's not a new change.

R. Cronin

[Bob Mc Alice]

To further add to the muddy waters, when you look at the legal description of a small bore hunter rifle it refers you back to see the HPHR description. Has anyone got any solid answers to the hunter rifle magazine capacity concerns of this post? Seems like as the current rules are written, single round feed and load thru a magazine for SB & HP hunters is OK.

[Bob259]

Which was my problem and what drove the question... do I just get a single shot built or one with a magazine. Based on some other input I'm thinking I'll go with a magazine and be over with it.

[Bob Mc Alice]

Alright, I just got a return call from Lee Oneil. He is one of the members ( from CO.) on the silhouette rules committee. This straight from Lee: as the current rules are written concerning magazine fed rifles, single loading from the magazine for HPHR is legal.......for now. He is heading to the NRA in Washington DC. next week for the annual committee meetings. He told me that this topic was on the agenda to be discussed futher. Said we MAY be going back to the 3 plus 2 loading rule. That is if your magazine wont work properly with all 5 cartridges, you start with 3 then reload with 2 more. Right now, magazine loading is whatever combination of five you want to use, single or multiple, as long as they are fed from the magazine to the chamber.

[sobrbiker883]

The original poster asked about a custom hunter gun built on a custom action that is single shot based on the 700 action.

My question is what about a rifle built on a trued 700 action, would it have to be in a stock that is built with an internal/detatchable magazine to be compliant?

The area seems grey, but it would appear to me that it would have to have a magazine, since it came from the factory (not the smith's shop) as a repeater.

I too am thinking of having a hunter gun built, but my budget probably won't see a custom action.

[Bob Mc Alice]

Steve, the answer to your question is yes, either a blind or hinged floorplate magazine type stock is required if the action has a magazine cutout. My finances won't allow for one of those high priced 700 clones either. Personally, I dont think you are getting a much better action than a factory Rem 700 anyway. (let the howling begin) The customs are built to tighter tolerances and their cosmetic appearence is nice, but you still need to buy a trigger. We shoot an offhand game, I think these actions are best suited to benchrest competition where this kind of precision can be the difference between winning or losing a match by mere thousanths of an inch.
I rebarreled my two 7-08's recently. I took the 700 actions to our QC dept. to see if "blueprinting" was something I might want to do to them. Both of them were near identical in their dimensions. The barrel threads were concentric to bolt centerline axis within .0015, the action face was perpendicular to the threads less than .002. The bolt faces were square to center line and pararell to the action face within .001. Both bolt lugs had near equal camming engagement. Bottom line: no "blueprinting" needed.
After installing the new Douglas 7-08 barrels I was delighted to see both rifles deliver nickle size groups at chickens. In my own experiance, you can not go wrong with a factory 700 action. This is why many custom action builders copy them. Remington knows what they are doing.....they have made millions of them and thousands of competition shooters are using them. Dont get me wrong. I'm not bashing custom actions or the people that choose to use them. But the action is the most expensive part of a custom rifle build. When you add in the costs of a quality barrel, high end stock, trigger, and the labor to put this all together you are approaching close to $1800.00... before optics. This silhouette game is expensive enough. I would rather spend the xtra money on loading components.

[sobrbiker883]

Thanks Bob. My "starter" rifle is a LTR in 308 in a McMillan Master Silhouette stock. I am thinking of getting a different stock, that will allow me to shoot both classes, so I will do one with a BDL bottom or an ADL blind mag.
I'm sure the rifle is way more accurate than my offhand......
After I move up a class or two I may rebarrel it in 260 or 7-08 and check the trueness then.