vertical grip stocks - peace through understanding

[375Short]

Now that we are approaching that between seasons time of year I need some clarification. Based on what I read and hear so do others. This may be a very old subject but for myself and others it seems current. I recently read a post containing the words “prohibited vertical pistol grip "Anschutz Style" stocks” in this contexts it was in question of rules pertaining to a Hunter class rifle. Over the last several years I have heard this subject from other shooters and have participated in a few conversations on the matter. I personally know a long time competitor that almost left our sport over the issue, if there is one there’s more. We don’t want any competitors to walk away, especially when maybe it’s a gray area that can be laid to rest. My own preference was towards a Anschutz MS style stock, wanting to avoid any stress as I reentered the sport I choose another stock design free of any known current controversy.

To open the educational conversation I will start with how it seems to me. Heck maybe I will have it 100% correct, my spouse would say that is about 100% not likely.

- the only NRA rules that should be applicable for the conversation are those contained in the MOST current rule book, history of past rules may be interesting but current is the rule.
- Sec. 3 of the current rules makes no mention of grip angle, vertical or otherwise. Only prohibits thumbhole.
- No place that I have found in the rules mentions a “jig” at all, Let alone the standard to which one may be built. The measurements set forth in the rules are easily checked with common measuring tools. No jig required or needed, if such a thing has been built, To what jig standard, defined in what jig rule? I think the jig is up on the jig, the ones that may actually exist can go into the NRA museum.
- many of our current and popular silhouette stocks have very vertical grips, maybe with a little C shape to them but vertical is there main direction of travel. Why, because that makes for a comfortable off-hand stock. We have deviated a long way from anything close to a common Hunting style rifle unless you hunt steel animals from the standing position. I’m not listing that as a concern, just an observation of fact.
- my conclusion is the Anschutz style silhouette stock, often copied by McMillian and others is legal. I see no rule clearly making it not legal, assuming it complies with other well defined measurements contained in the rules. It deviates no further from the spirit of the game than our current popular (legal) stocks. Let the people shooting with them walk up to a match certification table without breaking into hives as whispers of controversy ripple through the crowd.

Hopefully no fire extinguishers needed or a National popcorn shortage created. A consensus of opinion may put one little topic to rest, that’s a constructive use of time.

[lone ringer]

First I want to state that I really don't care if someone shows up with an Anschutz stock on their hunting rifle. Our numbers are so low at any HP match that I would not want to chase anybody away by protesting their equipment.
I will offer a bit of history so that anybody new to the sport knows how we got the current rules. The first time hunting rifles were allowed in competition in the 80's were for people that did not have "silhouette rifles" and was not a way for "regular silhouette shooters" to have another chance at winning a championship. After a while a lite Rifle class was included and the SB rifle weight limit was 7.5 lbs and HP rifle 9 lbs including scopes, no different stock configuration rule yet. After a couple of years of that and after seeing what the competitors were doing to comply, the silhouette committee made the change to Hunting Rifle class (no longer Lite Rifle class). The SB rifle gained one pound because it was very hard to come up with 7.5 lbs without removing weight from wooden stocks. They made the hunting class rifles factory production (read no custom rifles) and they had to appear on catalogs (they did not specify which catalogs, so at least one competitor used a custom rifle because the maker had a catalog). In the early 2000's rules changed again and we could use wild cat cartridges and custom rifles in Hunting rifle competition as long as they had a "hunting style stock" non thumb hole, a barrel no longer than 26", a trigger of 2 lbs or more with a working safety, no single shot rifles unless the action was a single action like some of the Remington (40X and XP100) and custom actions. They may have included something regarding vertical grips on the rule or not but everybody understood the difference between both rifle classes.
The quoted rule in the previous post mentions thumb hole stocks not allowed but does not include the beginning of the rule. Stock. A hunting style stock. . Also the 3.1.1 High Power Hunting Silhouette Rifle begging by saying A hunting style rifle.
In my opinion stocks like the Anschutz and others used in Standard Rifle that are unlike hunting style stocks should not be used in serious Hunting Silhouette because if the competitor goes to a State, Regional or National championships, they run the risk of being protested and have their equipment disallowed.
I have been shooting HP rifle silhouette since 1978
Tony Tello

[375Short]

I was exposed to silhouette in the early 80’s and returned to the sport a half dozen or so years ago. Lots of history between those years. As a person absent for so many years I appreciate understanding what has changed , how and why.

Thank you for taking the time to offer great insight and all your contribution to this sport.

[44 mag]

Here is my take on this thread. And like Tony this will be my only comment on this matter.

Let’s start with the vertical grip.
A few years back the rules committee ruled that the HS Precision Stock witch is very similar to a 54 or 64 MS style stock was legal for hunter rifle. I know of a few competitors that carry the letter from the rules committee allowing this type of stock. In my opinion we have been using the Pharr style for years now and this style stock is a vertical grip.
I have no problems as a MD for many large matches allowing shooters to use this type of stock.

As for the Jig.
This has raised some controversy over the last few years as it was left out of the last rule book printing that a standard rifle must fit in the jig. There is a jig in Ridgway as well as Raton. Not sure who else has them.
In years past all stock dimensions were listed in the rule book as well as the jig requirements. Now since the NRA wanted to save a few sheets of paper in the rule book all this has been left out as well as a few other things and this leaves a MD without a leg to stand on when it comes to these issues.

It makes it very hard to run a match of any type when the rules are not clear to everyone involved.
Mike Haynes

[375Short]

Thank goodness for the hard working generous folks that act as match director, without you folks we would all be screwed or required to step Up and be a match director (we should all work a little harder and do a little more to make your job easier). I and We the competitors can’t thank you men and women enough for the time and effort you dedicate to keeping the firing lines open and the matches coming for the sport we love.

I agree, the rule book is full of holes and the keepers of the book a little absent from the Helm. Thus far the opinion from two well seasoned match directors and competitors seems to be under the most current rules, at a match directed by them, a stock of the design featured in this conversation would be allowed. We can’t predict the future of silhouette or it’s rules, although that is ultimately in our own hands, but for now it seems to be getting more clear on this topic. Thank you both again for your Input, hard work and leadership.

[acorneau]

Just stumbled across this 2006 video about HP silhouette:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4vPpGntLCs

If you jump to about 3:30 they show weighing the rifle and putting it into the jig to check measurements. It's a pretty quick view but at least you can get an idea of how it works.

The rest of the video is pretty cool as well.

[Merlin]

Interesting to see the HP calibers used at the time the video was made. Thanks for that Allen.

[375Short]

The Video captured a few of our friends that have passed, it was an unexpected tribute. Nice to see them again.

The jig is a fancy thing, never seen it before.

Thanks for posting that Allen

[cowtownscout]

Allen thanks for the link to that video. Brought back lots of great memories. I have not shot any shilouette matches in many years. Recognized several folks at that nationals. Shot at Ridgeway many times over the years.

[GSL]

Hello all ,

I certainly agree with the statement ;
If rules are used … they must be clearly understood by those using those rules … otherwise we will have constant bickering and subsequent PROTEST . Having said that - we now have 2 classes :
Standard rifle ( a heavy match rifle ) and HUNTER class .
Everyone should realize that those Hunter class Frankenstein - custom built LIGHT match rifles will NEVER pass as a hunting rifle !
We all know this . I have thought many years now that ;
IF we would envision a simpler approach - we can easily do away with multiple guns by simplifying the rifle designation .
If we were to accept that we now have a lighter match rifle and a heavier match rifle - what would happen if we were to accept an Anschutz 54 MS style stock for Hunter rifle ???
I propose this :
High power hunter is 9 lbs
Smallbore Hunter is 8.5 lbs
Standard rifle for Both is 10 lbs 2 ounces .
If we made Smallbore AND High Power BOTH 9 lbs …
We would effectively cause to die out :
Both Standard rifles . Why ??? Since most competitors FAVOR one gun - they will choose the lighter Match rifle .
If High power is 9 lbs
And Smallbore is 9 lbs …
And if Standard rifle is dwindling …
What would happen ???
One rifle for Smallbore
One rifle for High Power …
Both are 9 lbs .
Would that not greatly simplify the match directors job ???
If all persons like the Anschutz 54 MS style stock -
And other stock manufacturers copy such a style stock - it would Greatly simplify Silhouette Rifle shooting !!!
The competitors will choose a lighter weight Match rifle anyways .
Those working on stocks would benefit .
The same stocks will be used …
Phar style for both High Power and Smallbore .
We could then offer the possibility of the MS style stock as well .
We would NO LONGER have to separate Standard and Hunter .
The competitors will now bring 1 Smallbore rifle and 1 High Power rifle . That’s traveling with only 2 rifles . Very Simple .
Participation in the National Championship event will no longer be problematic ! Each competitor is using one rifle for Both High Power and Smallbore . Therefore the number of competitors for either Championship will be nearly DOUBLED .
The matches will be less expensive !
And of course :
We would be returning to the original spirit of the Metallic Silhouette game ! It started with one rifle for High Power .
After seeing enthusiasm they Added Smallbore !
To complicate things further :
We had Standard Rifle
We had Hunter rifle
We had Open Rifle !
Would can afford all these rifles ???
Travel - expense and of course Trigger time is less !
Consider this :
Petition for 9 lb weight limit on Hunter rifle
Petition for MS style stocks as acceptable for Hunter .
We will eliminate Standard rifle .
I hope some of you think about this …
Perhaps Tony Tello might give feedback …
Thank you
GSL

[cedestech]

.

[atomicbrh]

The heavy standard smallbore rifle should have always been an off the shelf Anschutz 1800 series, 1900 series, 54 series (without hook buttplates), a weight rule like 13 pounds and a rule limiting the amount of forearm or blocks from the barrel to the front hand plus the present trigger rule, the present cheekpiece rule and scope height rule.
This would allow the Walther KK500 and FWB 2800 plus the present heavy silhouette rifles and custom actions to fit in the same standard rifle rules. It allows a position shooter to keep their equipment after their school career is over and keep competing just by adding a scope and rings. Most of those competitors sell their equipment as soon as their last college or high school match is over.
This would create a true heavy rifle class.
Before any of you yell "equipment race", there are already custom rifles with custom actions and barrels all up and down the silhouette firing lines.

[GSL]

Smallbore . Therefore the number of competitors for either Championship will be nearly DOUBLED .

The matches will be less expensive !

I have soooo many questions on thought process.... Sooooo many....

Please ask away …
Did my message seem unclear ?
Did you actually think about what my suggestion might do if adopted ? If the number of competitors is cut in half because some attend Standard rifle and some attend Hunter rifle - both in high power as well as smallbore … by making one rifle designation - ie Hunter as 9 lb - there would be no need for Standard .
If there is no standard , then by default Hunter would be the only silhouette rifle … you would not be dividing participation
By people choosing only Standard . Might you understand now ???
GSL

[cedestech]

.

[Doodaddy]

Smallbore . Therefore the number of competitors for either Championship will be nearly DOUBLED .

The matches will be less expensive !

I have soooo many questions on thought process.... Sooooo many....

Please ask away …
Did my message seem unclear ?
Did you actually think about what my suggestion might do if adopted ? If the number of competitors is cut in half because some attend Standard rifle and some attend Hunter rifle - both in high power as well as smallbore … by making one rifle designation - ie Hunter as 9 lb - there would be no need for Standard .
If there is no standard , then by default Hunter would be the only silhouette rifle … you would not be dividing participation
By people choosing only Standard . Might you understand now ???
GSL

Have you ever seen someone compete in just one rifle and leave? I have never in my life.

By default, if they can shoot in hunter, that gun qualifies for standard so you gain no shooters there and I've never heard of a person shooting only standard.

There is no participation division there.

Lever action or air rifle you could make a case for though.