Bullet Construction and Ram Knock down

[TheBugFather]

Very cool video of slow motion photography rifle bullets and AR 550 steel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0EQs4Ou9u4

My premise has always been that it is more important to have greater dwell time against the targets to PUSH them off the stands.

You get that with greater mass, longer bullets and heavier bullet construction, not necessarily velocity (more recoil).

I have been successful with balancing these things shooting subsonic in my Lever Action and Handgun silhouette experiments.
PRO - no or little recoil
CONS - You need much better follow through like air rifle, slightly more wind drift and you really need to crank up the elevations.

My Holy Grail is looking for a 129-130 grain 6.5mm thick jacket 6.5mm boat tail bullet going 2300 -2400 fps for my little 6.5 Grendel, that is cheap.

What I mean by dwell time is the longer amount of time you can keep the bullet crumpling (pushing) against the target, the better the chance you have of knocking it over. Take a look at the 300 blackout (Whisper) in the video, that I have used in 200 Meter Handgun Silhouette. These are the same targets we use for Lever Action Rifle Silhouette.

It makes more physics sense to me that thin jacketed bullets pushed very fast would tend to Blow Up (pop) on the target and not push the target over as would a slower moving bullet of heaver (hunting) construction.

Screen Shot 2023-09-17 at 7.29.55 AM.png

Anyways..... I could not sleep, so here I am rambling online

Thanks for the time, hope you found it interesting.

Dennis Ostler

[cedestech]

It makes more physics sense to me that thin jacketed bullets pushed very fast would tend to Blow Up (pop) on the target and not push the target over as would a slower moving bullet of heaver (hunting) construction.

My understanding is the opposite. Target bullets are constructed heavier and will not expand/deform when entering a body and thus aren't a human way to hunt. Hunting bullets have a thinner jacket/designed to deform/mushroom entering soft-ish tissue.

Have never read anything one way or another from a bullet manufacture other then not to use "target" bullets on game because they do not expand.

I will testify that XTP 180 in 357 will "explode" on a steel where Sierra 180 Silhouette bullets leave a pock mark and transfer more energy.

[Merlin]

A baseball at 97 hurts like hell but a medicine ball at 15 will take you down. Another proponent of weight and dwell time.

[TheBugFather]

I will testify that XTP 180 in 357 will "explode" on a steel where Sierra 180 Silhouette bullets leave a pock mark and transfer more energy.

Emmett, this proves my point, the Hornady 180gr XTP bullet is designed to expand at low handgun velocities and the Sierra 180's are by Sierra's own words designed as tough heavy jacketed bullet designed for the demanding sport of handgun silhouette (357 magnum/357 maximum), and should be considered a non expanding bullet at handgun velocities."

look at this picture:

ELD -Match vs ELD-X.jpg

This is comparing the Hornady ELD Match bullet vs. the ELD-X long range hunting bullet, note the thicker tapered jacket as you get closer to the base.
Yes, it is designed to expanded but with controlled expansion to help retain weight. This is the idea behind the Swift A-frame and Nosler Partition bullets, expansion but also weight retention to smash through bone.

The match bullets are considered non-expanding in soft tissue, because they poke a hole like a pencil would, but they still have a thin jacket because, it is a lot easier to make a more accurate match bullet with a thin uniform jacket, than with a thicker tapered jacket.

If Jack Hill were still with us, I think he would back me up on this (he was one of the "J's" in J4 jackets.

If you notice the hunting bullet has an inverted V point plastic tip, that is to create increased initial expansion. The match bullet has a wider straight cylinder under the plastic tip. That is to move more of the weight away from the tip, for more stable ballistics.

A tougher constructed bullet, like the Sierra 180's punches more like a bowling ball than a pencil.

I think the 3 reasons that heavier match bullets do better is:

1. well...they are heavier.
2. the heavy bullet is longer than lighter bullets, so more dwell time.
3. because they are heavier, they are often slower as they can't be driven as fast.

Sorry for all the edits...

Now if they could make and 6.5mm ELD-X at 123 to 130 grains, my little Grendel and I, would be very happy.

Dennis Ostler

[Merlin]

So Dennis is the 123 Hornady bullets failing to get it done on Rams? I have 10 boxes for my Grendel... Should I worry...?

[TheBugFather]

I don't think you should worry, but I use the 130gr Norma Golden bullets.

Are your 123's Hornady the SST bullet or the ELD match?

Either should work, I would imaging better than the 6mm group with lighter bullets.

I was thinking of trying the 143gr ELD-X bullet, but not sure how much my velocities will drop.
It might not be that much of a trade off, with the better BC of the bullet.

Back a long time ago, Tony tried my Grendel at a Nationals, but he tried driving the heavy bullets as fast as possible.
He didn't have very good results in the accuracy department. He could hit just about anything he pointed the thing at for the first 3 distances using 107's, but the Ram was like a shotgun with 140's grains+ bullets.

When I use the 130gr Norma Golden, my accuracy is great.

Dennis

[cedestech]

I emailed a manufacture that a lot of people use, didn’t get permission to use their name but the reply was:

“I would give the target bullet the edge due to its slightly thicker jacker than the hunting bullets have. Would hold together better in my opinion.”

I did ask specifically where they have a product group that has 2 versions of the same bullet, same weight, which one would likely transfer more energy. Litteraly an apples to apples except one bullet is designated for target, the other for hunting.

That being said, all manufactures may not build their hunting/target bullets the same so I’d think going with recommendation from the manufacture is probably the best bet.

YMMV, IMHO, etc.

[TheBugFather]

I like the discussion, things like this really interest me

I think Berger's hybrid line falls in this area.

Dennis Ostler

[TheBugFather]

This is the Swift Sirocco 6.5mm II 130gr bullets that I plan on trying again.

I had a box a long time ago, but wasted them without really testing them.

Just not a cheap bullet, look at that jacket wall!

Scirocco_3Pack_260ce17b-6382-45d2-9b38-b12a74b79631 copy.jpg

Here is a Sierra 6.5mm 150gr bullet on the right and a Berger on the left, not too bad.

sierra 1650gr 6.5mm MK.jpeg

Dennis Ostler

[cslcAl]

Dennis,

Sierra makes an excellent bullet you should try. They are the Tipped GameKings. In 6.5 they offer a 130 grain and a 140 grain. The bullet is designed just like a match bullet; and it has a thicker jacket. I have been using the 130 on deer for several years and the performance is excellent and the accuracy is outstanding.
The plastic tip gives them a little higher BC also. I think the 130 might be a little light for rams, but the 140 definitely would do the job.

Al Foust

[TheBugFather]

Thanks Al, I'll look into them.

My Grendel doesn't seem to like anything over 130 grains.

The Sirocco is like throwing dollar bills down range, kind of like a Bullet Strip Club

Dennis Ostler

[c4p6t7r188]

Thanks Al, I'll look into them.

My Grendel doesn't seem to like anything over 130 grains.

The Sirocco is like throwing dollar bills down range, kind of like a Bullet Strip Club

Dennis Ostler

They also make it in 130gr.

This is a great thread. Thanks.

TMKvsTGK.jpeg

[TheBugFather]

c4p6t7r188, great pictures!

Dennis Ostler

[c4p6t7r188]

c4p6t7r188, great pictures!

Dennis Ostler

Not mine, taken from google!

[TheBugFather]

Dennis,

Sierra makes an excellent bullet you should try. They are the Tipped GameKings. In 6.5 they offer a 130 grain and a 140 grain. The bullet is designed just like a match bullet; and it has a thicker jacket. I have been using the 130 on deer for several years and the performance is excellent and the accuracy is outstanding.
The plastic tip gives them a little higher BC also. I think the 130 might be a little light for rams, but the 140 definitely would do the job.

Al Foust

Al I have notifications set for when these 130’s become available.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Dennis Ostler