NRA Hunter Class, Factory Stock Guns or Customs

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Wed May 10, 2006 10:07 am

Here's the million dollar question of the day. Should the NRA hunter silhouette class, both smallbore and high power, be strictly factory guns? If you think only factory guns should be allowed, what modifications can be made to the original gun? Should it be like the lever action cowboy guns that have to have the stock in its original configuration? Should triggers be allowed to be replaced or "gunsmithed" or should only the factory designed adjustability be allowed? Should any stock length adjustments be allowed, like adding spacers or thicker recoil pads for adding length or cutting the stock down for reducing length? (Options for this would make the poll too complicated, and I doubt much controversy here) Are the rules best left as they currently are, with full-on custom guns in "hunter style" stocks allowed for hunter class?

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Wed May 10, 2006 10:26 am

I tried to be non-biased in posting the poll, so I'm putting my own opinion here separately. I think rules requiring factory stock guns would just put more 1712s on the racks at matches, and the best shooters would still be the best shooters but they'd just have to look a little longer at all the guns on the rack to see which one was theirs. Changing the rules back to that would cause an uproar that would make the whole airgun sporter class debacle pale in comparison, too. The gun I'm currently waiting to get put together is a 1712 barreled actions in one of Mark Pharr's stocks, which is going to cost almost exactly the same as the 1712 Meister Grade guns that most people seem to be picking up now. The cash outlay is the same, but I have to wait a little longer to get it. Either option would be a step up from my CZ, even now that I have the Frankenstock finished, and I don't expect there would be much score difference between them in my hands. All in all, I can't say that it's a big deal to me in the long run.

The funny part is that it's a bigger deal to me now than it will be eventually. That's mostly because the factory stock on the 1712 is designed with silhouette in mind and is very nice for a factory stock. The trigger is also very nice and even going to the 5022 in a custom gun isn't leaps and bounds better. The story is completely different on the low end guns, though, even with the CZs. The CZ stocks aren't all that great for silhouette, even in the Silhouette/Style models. The trigger is also pretty bad from the factory. You can't even get the heavier barrel model in anything but the Varmint stock. Being able to have the heavier barrel of the Varmint action with the adjustable sear (Timney replacement would be even better) and customize the stock into something usable for offhand shooting is great. If anything, I think having the rules not allowing customization would discourage me now with my lower end gun more than it would in the future.

As has been said, silhouette isn't for everyone. Those that are using the excuse that they can't compete with the top end equipment would find some other excuse if that weren't there. They're either interested in the sport enough to do the work or they're not. I think we'd be better served by exposing more people to silhouette shooting than setting up the rules to try to eliminate excuses from those who need them. That way, we'd have much better chances of getting more people who are enthusiastic about the sport instead of just more people who whine about it. Changing the rules back to only allow factory guns would just push more money toward Anschutz and less to gunsmiths that love and participate in the sport.

jneihouse · Post by **jneihouse** » Wed May 10, 2006 10:32 am

Jason,

Good poll, and a good idea. However, even if you allow only stock, and by stock you use the defination "looks like a hunter gun, NO modification to the gun as it comes from the factory" you will still have an arms race. Quite a bit of difference both in price and shootability between a Wally World 10-22 with a 12 dollar scope and a stock Anschutz 1712 or 1710. There is not nearly as much difference between a stock Anschutz hunter rifle and a "built" Anschutz hunter rifle.

Something similiar happened down this way (and maybe across the country) in dirt track stock car racing (what rednecks do with their disposable income when they aren't shooting). The entry level "stock" class was intended to be just that, but people began to build to the limit of the rules which discouraged entry level competitors and defeated the purpose, that being to bring new racers into the sport to keep the sport alive and allow for growth. The sanctioning bodies, to stop the equipment race put a "claimer" value on the cars in that class. I think they do the same in horse racing. Basically, if you won your car could be bought by someone else for, at that time $300.00. Of course this won't work in the shooting sports due to Federal laws on transfers, but it would make for some mighty interesting sandbagging. Complex problem, no clear answer.

jneihouse · Post by **jneihouse** » Wed May 10, 2006 10:34 am

Guess I was writing while Jason was posting.

kevinpagano · Post by **kevinpagano** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:10 am

Great posts. I come from a competitive shooting background. IPSC, Trapshooting to be specific. These sports are the same as silhouette in that they are always looking for ways to bring new people into the sport to ensure survival. Lots of rule changes just cause more animosity and problems. Education and youth programs are the way to grow any sport. The NRA should be heavilly promoting youth and casual match programs to all affiliated ranges. This will take some investment. Educating our youth and bringing them into the fold is the only real answer to survival of our sports or our gun rights. I think that is an investment that is worthwhile. I like the way the rules are currently set up. I can be competitive at my current level with a $300.00 dollar gun and a $200.00 scope. I also like buying new gadgets and guns etc. So I can invest later in a 1712 (which i currently have on lay away)and have it built to my specs etc. This is what makes the sport fun. If I were stuck with a factory stock gun in hunter for the rest of my days I would not enjoy the sport as much. Another thought is that you could require a factory gun until you got out of b class or maybe higher. Then open up the modifications for higher caliber shooters. ( hope I get out of b class soon).

Just my thoughts as a brand new shooter.

Kevin

Koldkut · Post by **Koldkut** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:22 am

I havn't even shot a match (I'm up for saturday Kevin, where you want to meet and at what time) and I've already got the mindset that I can perform with the best. It may have been talking to the DAWG around this place, but I think its a mental game over a dollar game. as long as the rifle can group inside of the intended target size, I should be able to shoot every target down with any gun that patterns as well. I know better of my own abilities, but if people are calling this a dollar game and getting discouraged over it, maybe its because of the AAA and master class shooters all having the custom guns and all the flashy stuff and they are associating a good score with the equipment.

slowstdy · Post by **slowstdy** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:33 am

Great Post. And I may be repeating what other

kevinpagano · Post by **kevinpagano** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:34 am

Andrew, dont go and emabarass me with my own gun. Not cool. hehehhe
I will email you my number tonight so we can hook up. I live on the north end of town. We will meet somewhere up there.

Kevin

Koldkut · Post by **Koldkut** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:38 am

As far as new shooters go, I think that there needs to be a better way to introduce people, If I didn't know the Dawg, I don't think I would even know how to get into this sport. You guys know the sport better than I do. I fully intend on building a set of targets and inviting friends out to shoot at them to entice them and see if they enjoy it.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:55 am

I say leave the rules alone. Over the last few year the rules we have changed did nothing to improve on the number of participants at the match. Myself I have custom hunter guns but have factory stock guns also. But my vote would have to be leave the rules alone and shoot what we have. Paul

genphideaux · Post by **genphideaux** » Wed May 10, 2006 12:39 pm

Well to solve all of this we will have a competions for self confedence building, every one gets a perticepation award and a photo op, you can only shoot 20 animals after that it will be considered no hits or miss just a shot, anyone who is entered will recceive a score of twenty to start. As you can tell we will all score a twenty and there will be only one class the "I showed up and got an award" class. At 20 we have room to improve, where ever that may go.

Rules are fine, equipment is fine, some people......Just make you want to slap'em to sleep.

I do believe some people are fearedup of their own gun.

jneihouse · Post by **jneihouse** » Wed May 10, 2006 12:54 pm

I've posted to this effect before, but it would be germane to the discussion to repeat for the benefit of the newer shooters and others that may have began to read this board. We (match directors, concerned shooters, leaders in our sport) are all dealing with a common problem. That is, how to attract and keep new shooters in what is considered by some to be the most difficult shooting discipline. If we don't continue to attract and keep new shooters the sport will wither on the vine and die. It's up to the local clubs to generate the enthusiasm and develop a nurturiing environment in order to develop new shooters. Compounding the problem is the fact that we compete with other shooting sports that have an easier entry level and a faster track to success, such as sporting clays and some of the pistol sports.

Faced with the declining numbers at our club (Old Fort Gun Club, Fort Smith Arkansas) a few years ago, we began to offer a "club match" ran in conjunction with the regular smallbore match. The club match was shot at the same time as teh smallbore match using the same commands. The animals we used were the hunter's pistol 1/2 scale targets (the same as used in cowboy silhouette). New shooters, with a little instruction can have some pretty good success with the larger targets, even with marginal equipment and we've been able to graduate several from the club match to the regular NRA smallbore match. We've also been having an informal "practice" night every Thursday evening from after work until dark where we set up targets and invite all comers to come out and give it a try. It gives us an opportunity to work one on one with new shooters, which is nearly impossible on match day, and the zero pressure environment makes it a lot of fun for young and old alike.

A little extra work, but the investment pays off.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Wed May 10, 2006 1:06 pm

Hmm. we usually have our cowboy and hunter pistol matches on Saturday with our smallbore match on Sunday. I wonder if we could get a fun match going somewhere in there using the cowboy animals with a "shoot whatcha got" match. Thanks for the idea. It would be fun practice for those of us already shooting the NRA smallbore match, too.

jneihouse · Post by **jneihouse** » Wed May 10, 2006 1:21 pm

We convinced a local gunshop to put up a $50.00 gift certificate for a perfect 40 shot in the club match. That seems to get peoples attention. You just have to keep your good smallbore shooters out of the mix in order not to discourage the newbies....

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Wed May 10, 2006 1:27 pm

Either that or not let them shoot their good guns. I was thinking of shooting a factory stock 10/22 with a straight 4X non-AO scope, just to see what I could do with it. I might be scared to shoot my CZ because it would be pretty embarassing to miss a cowboy animal with it.

Edit: I just thought what would be even more fun to shoot in that event... an iron-sighted CHIPMUNK! Just imagine my 6' tall lanky self with my long monkey arms shooting a little Chimpunk. That could be pretty funny.

NRA Hunter Class, Factory Stock Guns or Customs

Should only factory stock guns be allowed in hunter class?

NRA Hunter Class, Factory Stock Guns or Customs