9lb SB hunter rifle
- Emietenkorte
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Re: 9lb SB hunter rifle
thauglor wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2025 10:47 am You change this rule you will have to change standard as well. A 1 lb 2oz difference between the 2 isn't much so why even have standard then.
Everyone has been building 8.5 lb rifles for over a decade, maybe even over 20 years., we know what contours work. And anyone building a custom rifle is already into silhouette so don't give me that easier to introduce new people into it excuse.
Hell, your contour and cost argument can be used to say why even stop at 9lbs? Why is 9lbs okay for centerfire, lets make it 10lbs all across so an MTU standard prefit barrel can be used.
The rule of not allowing any barrel attachments prevents just adding a weight, which would also make the barrels longer than 26". You will make the people with 8.5 lb rifles have to spend ~$700+ to put on a new barrel to fit these new rules.
So much for saving money, just admit that is not your true goal
Maybe I’m wrong, but I feel some of these comments were directed towards me so I’ll try to explain my thoughts a little better. I’ve never stated that my goal was to save money, I only stated that trying to make weight can sometimes be costly. My only goal is to make more equipment accessible to shooters for our game, especially new shooters. The individuals that have built 8.5lbs rifles aren’t affected unless they want to be. No one is saying you have to rebarrel your 8.5lbs. hunter rifle and spend more money. However, this update may make it easier for new shooters to adapt to our game. Being realistic, equipment that is currently on the market is not being designed and built for our game anymore. Scopes are becoming heavier, available actions that a new shooter might want to shoot or build are not as light as they used to be and having a matching rimfire and centerfire rifle tends to be a common theme in other disciplines that are gaining in popularity.
Yes, shooters have been building 8.5lbs Hunter rifles for over a decade, I’ve built plenty myself, however I’m not thinking about the last decade, I’m thinking about the next decade and what shooters will have access to. Even now I see shooters from many disciplines snatching up any lightweight scopes they can from different shooter forums, eBay and gunbroker. I have even seen some of these individuals simply buy them, then turn around and mark the price up because they know how rare they have become. Simply put they are not scopes that can just be purchased at anytime. I’ve introduced many shooters to the sport who voiced concerns about having to get different equipment because they were a few ounces over 8.5lbs. so when you say “don't give me that easier to introduce new people into it excuse” I don’t see it as an excuse at all, but an actual situation that I have encountered.
It definitely was not my intent to upset you with my previous thoughts on this forum. I am however interested in what you believe my actual goal is. If I’m being misunderstood in anyway I would be more than happy to start a dialogue to clear things up.
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Re: 9lb SB hunter rifle
I'm 100% against some sort of push towards "factory" rifles since we all know that ends in an Anschutz 1712 spec class, which is now a rifle that costs more than many customs.
I'd be fine with a single class and officially recognizing open sight.
I'd be fine with a single class and officially recognizing open sight.
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Re: 9lb SB hunter rifle
Emietenkorte wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2025 7:07 pm
Maybe I’m wrong, but I feel some of these comments were directed towards me so I’ll try to explain my thoughts a little better. I’ve never stated that my goal was to save money, I only stated that trying to make weight can sometimes be costly. My only goal is to make more equipment accessible to shooters for our game, especially new shooters. The individuals that have built 8.5lbs rifles aren’t affected unless they want to be. No one is saying you have to rebarrel your 8.5lbs. hunter rifle and spend more money. However, this update may make it easier for new shooters to adapt to our game. Being realistic, equipment that is currently on the market is not being designed and built for our game anymore. Scopes are becoming heavier, available actions that a new shooter might want to shoot or build are not as light as they used to be and having a matching rimfire and centerfire rifle tends to be a common theme in other disciplines that are gaining in popularity.
Yes, shooters have been building 8.5lbs Hunter rifles for over a decade, I’ve built plenty myself, however I’m not thinking about the last decade, I’m thinking about the next decade and what shooters will have access to. Even now I see shooters from many disciplines snatching up any lightweight scopes they can from different shooter forums, eBay and gunbroker. I have even seen some of these individuals simply buy them, then turn around and mark the price up because they know how rare they have become. Simply put they are not scopes that can just be purchased at anytime. I’ve introduced many shooters to the sport who voiced concerns about having to get different equipment because they were a few ounces over 8.5lbs. so when you say “don't give me that easier to introduce new people into it excuse” I don’t see it as an excuse at all, but an actual situation that I have encountered.
It definitely was not my intent to upset you with my previous thoughts on this forum. I am however interested in what you believe my actual goal is. If I’m being misunderstood in anyway I would be more than happy to start a dialogue to clear things up.
Yes my comments were directed at you. I edited your post to highlight to particular arguments by only making it bold.
First argument:
Yes you making the rule change will cause and force people to spend $700 on getting an 8.5 lb gun up to 9lb, for the same reason why you are wanting to change the weight: because a heavier gun holds better. I am no where near the top nor close to winning the nationals, but at that high level every advantage is needed (the same at the pinnacle of every sport, small things decide the winners), so at least everyone at the top will have to rebarrel.
For your second point:
"Oh no, I am at 8.6 lbs i can't shoot hunter so I will go home" that is your argument when they can easily shoot in standard class, nothing is stopping them from continuing silhouette and it's most likely an excuse not to continue such a hard discipline. Or just an excuse to use to change the rules to suit you more. And in a club match most weights are not even enforced.
If you are already building a custom rifle at $2,500 to $3,000 in cost, is barrel contour really going to change the price that much? You are already ordering a $400 to $600 dollar blank, you get your choice of contour. I will answer for you, it doesn't affect cost.
Hell, Jake won the Monarch cup with a restocked cz457 with original factory barrel, the whole rifle is less than $600. Making this whole point moot
Also, as most people in silhouette are older, the heavier weight will affect them more, making the game even harder for them, thus reducing the amount of shooters at the top
- Emietenkorte
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Re: 9lb SB hunter rifle
First off, I'm really not trying to instigate any kind of argument, just trying to be understood. I'm not saying you're wrong, heck we could both be wrong, or could both be right in some regard. I just don't see it the same way as you. Your points are just as valid as mine, even if they're different or I don't agree.thauglor wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2025 7:59 pmEmietenkorte wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2025 7:07 pm
Maybe I’m wrong, but I feel some of these comments were directed towards me so I’ll try to explain my thoughts a little better. I’ve never stated that my goal was to save money, I only stated that trying to make weight can sometimes be costly. My only goal is to make more equipment accessible to shooters for our game, especially new shooters. The individuals that have built 8.5lbs rifles aren’t affected unless they want to be. No one is saying you have to rebarrel your 8.5lbs. hunter rifle and spend more money. However, this update may make it easier for new shooters to adapt to our game. Being realistic, equipment that is currently on the market is not being designed and built for our game anymore. Scopes are becoming heavier, available actions that a new shooter might want to shoot or build are not as light as they used to be and having a matching rimfire and centerfire rifle tends to be a common theme in other disciplines that are gaining in popularity.
Yes, shooters have been building 8.5lbs Hunter rifles for over a decade, I’ve built plenty myself, however I’m not thinking about the last decade, I’m thinking about the next decade and what shooters will have access to. Even now I see shooters from many disciplines snatching up any lightweight scopes they can from different shooter forums, eBay and gunbroker. I have even seen some of these individuals simply buy them, then turn around and mark the price up because they know how rare they have become. Simply put they are not scopes that can just be purchased at anytime. I’ve introduced many shooters to the sport who voiced concerns about having to get different equipment because they were a few ounces over 8.5lbs. so when you say “don't give me that easier to introduce new people into it excuse” I don’t see it as an excuse at all, but an actual situation that I have encountered.
It definitely was not my intent to upset you with my previous thoughts on this forum. I am however interested in what you believe my actual goal is. If I’m being misunderstood in anyway I would be more than happy to start a dialogue to clear things up.
Yes my comments were directed at you. I edited your post to highlight to particular arguments by only making it bold.
First argument:
Yes you making the rule change will cause and force people to spend $700 on getting an 8.5 lb gun up to 9lb, for the same reason why you are wanting to change the weight: because a heavier gun holds better. I am no where near the top nor close to winning the nationals, but at that high level every advantage is needed (the same at the pinnacle of every sport, small things decide the winners), so at least everyone at the top will have to rebarrel.
For your second point:
"Oh no, I am at 8.6 lbs i can't shoot hunter so I will go home" that is your argument when they can easily shoot in standard class, nothing is stopping them from continuing silhouette and it's most likely an excuse not to continue such a hard discipline. Or just an excuse to use to change the rules to suit you more. And in a club match most weights are not even enforced.
If you are already building a custom rifle at $2,500 to $3,000 in cost, is barrel contour really going to change the price that much? You are already ordering a $400 to $600 dollar blank, you get your choice of contour. I will answer for you, it doesn't affect cost.
Hell, Jake won the Monarch cup with a restocked cz457 with original factory barrel, the whole rifle is less than $600. Making this whole point moot
Also, as most people in silhouette are older, the heavier weight will affect them more, making the game even harder for them, thus reducing the amount of shooters at the top
Second, I'm not the only person that is in favor of this change. The petition that went around at Nationals and was submitted to the NRA last year has well over 100 signatures from shooters at all levels that were shooting at the Nationals. So please don't make me into the villain here.
To speak to your "First Argument", I haven't made the decision to make my hunter rifle heavier if the rule were to change, I really like how it feels and balances now and especially how it shoots with the current barrel. Definitely don't have to rebarrel the rifle to make it heavier either, If I did make it heavier I'd probably just put some lead in the stock towards my support hand so it doesn't change the balance. You're right a heavier gun does hold better for some, but there is a point of negative returns. Just like some like to have more weight out front in the barrel, I'm not one of those people. Both of my HP rifles have lead in the stock towards the back to improve the balance and both come in underweight. Even my smallbore standard rifle had lead in the very back of the buttstock to give it a better balance. You're also right that Jake won the Monarch Cup with a restocked CZ457 and also won the Nationals last year with it, with a factory barrel and I would definitely consider him at the top, he's a great shooter and could have rebarreled by now if he wanted to, even with the weight limit at 8.5lbs. Jake's name is also on that petition, so are the majority of the previous National Champions as well as many of the 2nd, and 3rd open winners from the last ten years. So when you say "at least everyone at the top will have to rebarrel." Those people at the top support this change.
The "Second Point"... No one has ever been turned away at a club match I've attended with a rifle that was slightly overweight, however individuals are aware of the rules and like to be within those rules because they want to do it the right way. I've even gone as far as lending out a rifle or two and provided ammo for an entire season because those individuals wanted to play by the rules but didn't have the means to buy a different rifle for the game at that time. I don't understand why you're being so cynical about this and these people's situations. I'm not trying to change the rules to suit me better, they suit me just fine as is, but I'm not just trying to look out for myself and what suits me, I truly want other people to be successful in this sport, because when people experience success they tend to stick with what they're doing. I want as many people in this sport as possible, if a heavier hunter rifle allows that to happen then I'm all for it. My passion for the sport goes beyond personal achievement; I want to see it grow and remain sustainable so that, one day, my son can experience the same joy that rifle silhouette has brought me.
You ask the question,"is barrel contour really going to change the price that much? You are already ordering a $400 to $600 dollar blank, you get your choice of contour. I will answer for you, it doesn't affect cost." Though I appreciate your input and answering for me that is not how I would have answered that question. In my original comment I mentioned "eliminating the need to compromise on barrel contours to make weight or to rely on costly custom machining, special barrel dimensions, or fluting from manufacturers." Yes you get your choice of contour, however plenty of people including myself have had to pay extra for barrel fluting to make the gun lighter to fit within the 8.5lbs rule. Fluting typically costs on average $150 more than a non-fluted contour. Twisted Barrels, who does a lot of custom machine work on barrels currently charges between $110 - $200 for fluting a barrel. I would say that DOES affect cost.
Looking through my lens, it's not the weight of the rifle that gets you to the top. It's not an automatic success criteria and is exemplified by Jake's success and his rifle. If a top shooter can't hold a heavier rifle as well as they used to, they will lighten their rifle just as they once made it heavier when they had the strength to hold it. There is no ulterior motive or anything nefarious behind my support for this change, I would venture to say that is the same for others who support it as well. In my opinion, having a heavier rifle doesn't mean you'll be more successful, however it may give more people the opportunity to get a start.
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Re: 9lb SB hunter rifle
If you want to ditch a silly rule which keeps factory rifles from competing get rid of the barrel taper and no adding to stock rules.
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Re: 9lb SB hunter rifle
Make it easy. One class, any sight, any trigger, any weight, anything that can be fired from the shoulder that is in an appropriate caliber. Open to 3P rifles, prone rifles, shuetzen rifles, lever rifles, 1022s, and ARs. I will bet you a dollar that the same people will win, no matter what.
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Re: 9lb SB hunter rifle
Which goes to show this sport is not and never has been an equipment race, but some want to make it seem like that. I'm simply saying why should a custom made stock be in a class "hunter" but lets move past that.SqHunter wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 2:43 pm Make it easy. One class, any sight, any trigger, any weight, anything that can be fired from the shoulder that is in an appropriate caliber. Open to 3P rifles, prone rifles, shuetzen rifles, lever rifles, 1022s, and ARs. I will bet you a dollar that the same people will win, no matter what.
I understand the want for getting new shooters and I honestly thought at the end of your statement you were going to say the same people would be showing up to matches haha.
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Re: 9lb SB hunter rifle
Hate for customation kills innovation and stagnates the sport. Removing custom rifles will not neccessarily simplify things either. Are you going to put Marlin Glenfields in the same class as Vudoo sporters?c4p6t7r188 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 2:50 pmWhich goes to show this sport is not and never has been an equipment race, but some want to make it seem like that. I'm simply saying why should a custom made stock be in a class "hunter" but lets move past that.SqHunter wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 2:43 pm Make it easy. One class, any sight, any trigger, any weight, anything that can be fired from the shoulder that is in an appropriate caliber. Open to 3P rifles, prone rifles, shuetzen rifles, lever rifles, 1022s, and ARs. I will bet you a dollar that the same people will win, no matter what.
I understand the want for getting new shooters and I honestly thought at the end of your statement you were going to say the same people would be showing up to matches haha.
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Re: 9lb SB hunter rifle
It was just a suggestion, I don't make the rules~ You wouldn't believe the amount of times I've had to explain the rules over and over usually to the same person. I don't know how the sport can be stagnant when it's all about beating yourself. If you want customization just shoot in "standard/open" would be my fix. Marlin vs Vudoo, depends I haven't really looked in to the build of a Vudoo would it be considered factory or customized? Let me simplify it...would a Marlin compete with a Anschutz 1712? Yes, does the Anschutz automatically make someone a better shooter? NO.SqHunter wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 3:13 pmHate for customation kills innovation and stagnates the sport. Removing custom rifles will not neccessarily simplify things either. Are you going to put Marlin Glenfields in the same class as Vudoo sporters?c4p6t7r188 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 2:50 pmWhich goes to show this sport is not and never has been an equipment race, but some want to make it seem like that. I'm simply saying why should a custom made stock be in a class "hunter" but lets move past that.SqHunter wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 2:43 pm Make it easy. One class, any sight, any trigger, any weight, anything that can be fired from the shoulder that is in an appropriate caliber. Open to 3P rifles, prone rifles, shuetzen rifles, lever rifles, 1022s, and ARs. I will bet you a dollar that the same people will win, no matter what.
I understand the want for getting new shooters and I honestly thought at the end of your statement you were going to say the same people would be showing up to matches haha.
Either way someone will be upset by any kind of change, so as the rules are that's what I accept until the NRA changes them...
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Re: 9lb SB hunter rifle
Please explain to me, like i am a child of 5 years old, how changing hunter rifles to 9 lb instead of 8.5 lbs will give more people the opportunity to start silhouette? There is already a standard class that will allow them to compete itEmietenkorte wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2025 10:01 pm
Looking through my lens, it's not the weight of the rifle that gets you to the top. It's not an automatic success criteria and is exemplified by Jake's success and his rifle. If a top shooter can't hold a heavier rifle as well as they used to, they will lighten their rifle just as they once made it heavier when they had the strength to hold it. There is no ulterior motive or anything nefarious behind my support for this change, I would venture to say that is the same for others who support it as well. In my opinion, having a heavier rifle doesn't mean you'll be more successful, however it may give more people the opportunity to get a start.
I am against rule changes cuz every time you change them, you will lose people. If you want an 8.5lb hunter smallbore gun to mimic your centerfire build, build your centerfire to 8.5 lbs. No rule change needed
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Re: 9lb SB hunter rifle
9 pound hunter has more bad points than good.
I'll go further and say silly, just like putting the animals closer. Easier does not map to better, in a challenge sport.
Two classes are better than one blurred class.
I'll go further and say silly, just like putting the animals closer. Easier does not map to better, in a challenge sport.
Two classes are better than one blurred class.
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Re: 9lb SB hunter rifle
Correct me if I have mis-spoken, but in the early days of smallbore Hunter the weight was 8lbs. The weight was increased to 8.5lbs when you couldn’t get an early production Anschutz 1710 to make weight. Like I said, I have never seen that in writing but was told several years ago from Old time shooter from back in the early 80s. Does the 1/2lb mean 2 shits?! Absolutely not! Will it give you more choice when purchasing scopes, rings, bases? You bet it will!
Butch
Butch
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Re: 9lb SB hunter rifle
Not sure of the year, but this article states that smallbore started at 7.5lbs with scope for hunter and 8.5lb for standard.Heavybarrell wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:58 am Correct me if I have mis-spoken, but in the early days of smallbore Hunter the weight was 8lbs. The weight was increased to 8.5lbs when you couldn’t get an early production Anschutz 1710 to make weight. Like I said, I have never seen that in writing but was told several years ago from Old time shooter from back in the early 80s. Does the 1/2lb mean 2 shits?! Absolutely not! Will it give you more choice when purchasing scopes, rings, bases? You bet it will!
Butch
https://www.ssusa.org/content/an-ad-hoc ... te-part-1/
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Re: 9lb SB hunter rifle
c4p6t7r188
Thank you for posting that link! Very interesting and fun read! However, it does prove one thing, the sport had rule and regulation changes throughout it's existence. Right, wrong, or in-different, things have to change and there in lies the problem. People (especially old people) do not like change.
Thank you again for the link! I greatly enjoyed reading it and going back in time and imagined participating in those days.
Thank you for posting that link! Very interesting and fun read! However, it does prove one thing, the sport had rule and regulation changes throughout it's existence. Right, wrong, or in-different, things have to change and there in lies the problem. People (especially old people) do not like change.
Thank you again for the link! I greatly enjoyed reading it and going back in time and imagined participating in those days.
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Re: 9lb SB hunter rifle
I have a "factory" 54 MSR from Champions Choice in a McMillian thumbhole swirly and it is under 8.5 pounds with a Leupold 6-20EFR.
I owned two of the original 1712 LW from Champions in a black McMillian sporter stock, and both would make 7.5 pounds with a 6-20EFR. I think they had 18.5 inch buggy whip barrels. They both shot bug holes. Now a 7.5 pound gun is a tad harder to shoot offhand than a 8.5 pounder, just like a 9 pounder will set new records compared to the current 8.5 pound limit.
I owned two of the original 1712 LW from Champions in a black McMillian sporter stock, and both would make 7.5 pounds with a 6-20EFR. I think they had 18.5 inch buggy whip barrels. They both shot bug holes. Now a 7.5 pound gun is a tad harder to shoot offhand than a 8.5 pounder, just like a 9 pounder will set new records compared to the current 8.5 pound limit.