c4p6t7r188 wrote: Sun Mar 09, 2025 2:41 pm

No1_49er wrote: Sun Mar 09, 2025 1:56 pm

Rotnguns wrote: Sun Mar 09, 2025 5:33 am This is exactly the setup I have, except with the skinnier bead from Shaver's. The aperture around the bead really helps me find the target when practicing indoors at over 30 yards.

Remember fellas, even when you are only practicing (I'm presuming for silhouette - presumption can be a dangerous thing) your equipment should be the same as if it were for a match.
Why practice with something that might not be compliant (3.1.3 (a)) for our game?

49er

When I go in to sight in my lever rifle at the indoor range I can't see the target what so ever I'm always second guessing where the center is, when I shoot silhouette the animal is very clear to me. I'm going to assume rotnguns has a similar issue and this helps battle that.

Indeed, this is exactly my situation. What I'm doing now is sighting in at 25 yards indoors because I can clearly see the target and bead, chronographing the loads, and using ballistic simulators to determine trajectory out to silhouette ranges. I can then find the appropriate elevations at 25 yards corresponding to the different target ranges for rimfire, PC, and rifle events.

No1_49er wrote: Sun Mar 09, 2025 1:56 pm

Rotnguns wrote: Sun Mar 09, 2025 5:33 am This is exactly the setup I have, except with the skinnier bead from Shaver's. The aperture around the bead really helps me find the target when practicing indoors at over 30 yards.

Remember fellas, even when you are only practicing (I'm presuming for silhouette - presumption can be a dangerous thing) your equipment should be the same as if it were for a match.
Why practice with something that might not be compliant (3.1.3 (a)) for our game?

49er

Indeed, but I'm using the indoor range to sight in because our outdoor range is not open every day and it's often windy this time of year. I think I found a solution though - sight in at 25 yards indoors, measure velocity of my loads, use a ballistics app to find trajectories, and determine points of impact at 25 yards for zeros at the different target ranges. Then, adjust sights to match calculated points of impact at 25 yards. Seems to be good so far with rimfire, trying tomorrow with 30-30 unless we get a break in the weather at the outdoors range.

I started by thinking what I see in my SB scope is what I want to see in my cowboy sight, a dot. I chose the bead insert for my globe. At certain times I found shadows, and lighting contrast could drive me crazy. I mounted it upside down and found that to work better more often. There are rarely shadows when you come from the top of the target. In the photo ignore the fact that there are two inserts, the point is the upside down post. Then I moved on to different versions of a front sight with a fiber. Probably a top contender for favorite among seasoned shooters. To me it more often than not looks like a comet with a tail or a . For the last few seasons an aperture is the choice and I have found it to have the least flaws. Try just the aperture, focus hard on the center of your target, regardless of its shape, it is surprisingly precise. I finish matches with less eye and brain strain than with other options. All that said it’s a matter of what suits your personal preference and allows you the most success and enjoyment (within the rules).lots of fun in exploring the options.

375Short wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:35 am I started by thinking what I see in my SB scope is what I want to see in my cowboy sight, a dot. I chose the bead insert for my globe. At certain times I found shadows, and lighting contrast could drive me crazy. I mounted it upside down and found that to work better more often. There are rarely shadows when you come from the top of the target. In the photo ignore the fact that there are two inserts, the point is the upside down post. Then I moved on to different versions of a front sight with a fiber. Probably a top contender for favorite among seasoned shooters. To me it more often than not looks like a comet with a tail or a . For the last few seasons an aperture is the choice and I have found it to have the least flaws. Try just the aperture, focus hard on the center of your target, regardless of its shape, it is surprisingly precise. I finish matches with less eye and brain strain than with other options. All that said it’s a matter of what suits your personal preference and allows you the most success and enjoyment (within the rules).lots of fun in exploring the options.

Very creative setup! I've also read some posts from competitors who use inserts rotated 90 degrees, so that the post and bead are horizontal.

Rotnguns wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:40 pm Very creative setup! I've also read some posts from competitors who use inserts rotated 90 degrees, so that the post and bead are horizontal.

Provided that you remain compliant with 3.1.3(a), you're good to go.
That rule clearly does not say vertical post, so it would be acceptable to mount it in such a way that it is horizontal, left or right facing. It's a matter of what 'sight picture' you most prefer.
Whilst a post AND a round aperture, stacked, would not be compliant, it could be argued that a bead is held in its central location by a post (of some sort) and the setup, as shown above, would be compliant.
Disputes committee?

49er

I would agree, a bead is always on a post. When I used that set up I was prepared to surrender to just the bead rather than be the center of attention and controversy. What I learned in practice was the bead could be tossed. That big flat post made great for a 12 o.clock hold. The bead just made things unnecessarily busy.

I’ve shot using 2 stacked posts at 6 and 12 quite well. My brain found it easy to release the trigger when the target was sandwiched between 2 posts.

edgehit wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 6:29 pm I’ve shot using 2 stacked posts at 6 and 12 quite well. My brain found it easy to release the trigger when the target was sandwiched between 2 posts.

In my book, that would not be compliant.
You are permitted to use a post (singular) but not two posts. I believe the Lee Shaver set has something similar in that there are four posts, one each at 3oc, 6oc, 9oc & 12oc, all in the same element. That is not compliant, but a round aperture is.

49er

What if you have a post with a hole in it? Is that a post or an aperture?

hugh

hugh wrote: Sat Mar 22, 2025 5:18 pm What if you have a post with a hole in it? Is that a post or an aperture?

hugh

Aperture.

A different interpretation. A Bead (a common shape of front sight), a Post ( common shape of front sight) , an Aperture (a little murky). One may argue the common Lyman 17a or similar sight is an Aperture type sight also often called a Globe or Target sight. Inside that Aperture one can place inserts. The rule makes no mention of inserts, how many or what shape. The rule then addresses Anti-Glare tubes as a separate issue or piece, as it could be applied to a hood over a post or bead front sight or part of the Aperture type sight. Then it mentions length and diameter, diameter is mentioned as if it’s a length measurement? In the end you have a rule that can be interpreted several ways and like most of the book could stand some serious editing. The difficulty in editing is the editor must know the “intent” of the rule.

I’m in no way certain this version of interpretation is the “intent” of the rule. I would argue that what insert shape or how many inserts a competitor places inside the 17a aperture sight is a matter of personal taste. No Lyman or Shaver insert shape (or combination) is the magic road to shooting 40.

The common interpretation of front sight standards is contained in the conversations prior to this post. That is the prudent approach.

A bead, a post, and an aperture walk into a bar. The bartender looks up and says,
“This a joke about threading the needle?”

The bead says, “No, we’re just stringing you along.”
The post adds, “I’m just here for support.”
The aperture sighs, “I just needed an opening.”

edgehit wrote: Fri Mar 28, 2025 4:59 pm A bead, a post, and an aperture walk into a bar. The bartender looks up and says,
“This a joke about threading the needle?”

The bead says, “No, we’re just stringing you along.”
The post adds, “I’m just here for support.”
The aperture sighs, “I just needed an opening.”

Two silhouette shooters walk out of a bar. Hey, could happen!

375Short wrote: Fri Mar 28, 2025 6:58 am A different interpretation. A Bead (a common shape of front sight), a Post ( common shape of front sight) , an Aperture (a little murky). One may argue the common Lyman 17a or similar sight is an Aperture type sight also often called a Globe or Target sight. Inside that Aperture one can place inserts. The rule makes no mention of inserts, how many or what shape. The rule then addresses Anti-Glare tubes as a separate issue or piece, as it could be applied to a hood over a post or bead front sight or part of the Aperture type sight. Then it mentions length and diameter, diameter is mentioned as if it’s a length measurement? In the end you have a rule that can be interpreted several ways and like most of the book could stand some serious editing. The difficulty in editing is the editor must know the “intent” of the rule.

I’m in no way certain this version of interpretation is the “intent” of the rule. I would argue that what insert shape or how many inserts a competitor places inside the 17a aperture sight is a matter of personal taste. No Lyman or Shaver insert shape (or combination) is the magic road to shooting 40.

The common interpretation of front sight standards is contained in the conversations prior to this post. That is the prudent approach.

Perhaps we are our own worst enemies?

Rule 3.1.3(a) is "muddy" and needs to be re-written to remove ambiguity.

Common usage (interpretation) of terms can lead one astray when we speak specifically about sights, globes, and apertures, for example.
My interpretation is as follows - yours may be different, and if so, our fraternity needs to resolve which will be applied.

The 'globe' is that piece of equipment that is mounted toward the muzzle end of the barrel. It is that part of the sight which retains the inserts which can be any number of shapes, but for the purpose of l/a silhouette, are limited to being a post or bead or fixed non magnified round aperture. The 2017 rule change (addition, to include "fixed non magnified round aperture") allowed for the use of the Lyman type apertures but excluded the variable Anschutz/Gehmann type. You are free to choose whatever aperture size that you desire, but it must be fixed in size.

"Inside that Aperture (Globe) one can place inserts. The rule makes no mention of inserts, how many or what shape."
The rule most certainly does stipulate that the front sight "must be a post or bead or a fixed non magnified round aperture".

If one peruses page 48 of the Lyman catalog, here https://www.lymanproducts.com/media/ama ... uRLQcu.pdf , it will be seen that even Lyman use two terms for the same system, one being '20MJT Globe Front Sight', and 'Series 17A Target Front Sights'.
From that same page there is a '93 Match & Series 20 MJT Insert Set', and 'Series 17A Insert Set'. The first refers to "two post inserts and five aperture inserts". The latter refers to "two post type inserts, one bead insert, and five aperture-type inserts".
Clearly, the inserts that have holes in them are apertures, the others not.

By way of illustration, and to throw even more "mud", go here https://williamsgunsight.com/wp-content ... atalog.pdf and look at pages 20 and 26, there are images of sight "hoods". Those are neither globes nor apertures; they are to provide "shade" over the front sight.

Even more of a "dogs breakfast" is that part of the rule defining the dimensions of the globe ( or should that be "anti-glare tube" ?? ) Length of the globe, or the anti-glare tube? Diameter: of which?

Don't get me started on the "support blade" length!

Maybe the whole thing needs a re-write?

49er