Trent

Take exception to "Hard Nosed" but if that's the term you want to use it's OK with me. Actually our club it's not an issue. We follow the rule book best we can. I have seen strict interpretation of rules more than once traveling to out of state matches. Other clubs do it their own way and don't worry about the rule book.

Questions on Hunter vs Standard are often asked, It's a hot topic, you can see from the responses to the post. Lot of shooters around the country want to see Hunter Class preserved others want to push it. I gave a conservative opinion that will serve a traveling shooter well. Doodaddy's plan to be able to demonstrate taper is a good one.

Boats

I built racing engines from March 1982 until September 1995 for the retail market winning many State level championships and a National 4 Cycle Open Championship in 1994. In 1995 the rule book for building the engines was if I recall correctly was 423 pages. You have not lived until you win the race and stay up the rest of the night and until after daybreak the next day tearing down your engine completely with the sanctioning body inspectors watching every move you make and measuring every intricate part of the engine. Then there are places 2 through 11 engine builders and crews waiting outside the tech barn door waiting to see if you passed, if they move up in finishing position and will have to tear down their engine. 1st Place was always torn all the way down. 2nd through 5th place was at least torn down to the short block but bore, stroke, displacement and everything else that could be checked from the outside of the short block was inspected thoroughly at the National level. Many people won on the racetrack but lost in the tech inspections. Kart racing is so competitive that every item on the kart must be built to the limit of the rules to win. One thing that really got me during the engine inspections was when the chief inspectors would tell everyone to stand still. This meant that the lights were going to be turned out. A flashlight with a pinpoint probe would then be used to look for holes drilled in carburators and engine parts where there were supposed to be no holes to gain a mechanical advantage. One time they found an extra hole in a carburator that was .020 inches. That is very small but gave the racer an advantage in a "stock" class. If somebody did not pass inspection, nobody jumped to the conclusion that the racer or his crew was cheating. Parts wear during a race and sometimes they wear to the point they become illegal by the rules. Scraper and Oil ring wear were the common culprits that would get people thrown out.
I am very thankful that we do not have such intricate rules in Silhouette. That is one reason my family likes Silhouette. The shooter is the most important factor in Silhouette not the equipment. Because there was money on the line lawyers get involved in racing. The practice of measuring parts with a dial caliper or micrometer will not hold up in court with the way the Silhouette rule book is written. The way the Silhouette rule book is written only go and no-go guages have any merit. The only "legal" no-go guage I have seen in Silhouette is the NRA jig. To explain further, you cannot measure the distance from the scope tube to the top of the receiver with a dial caliper or inside micrometer. The range official will not win his case in court because he does not need to know the exact measurement from the comeptitor's rifle's receiver to the bottom of the scope tube. All he needs to know is that it does not exceed the maximum distance specified in the rulebook. The range official is basically committing industrial espionage by determining that exact measurement. He only needs to know that the distance does not exceed 2.000 inches in Smallbore and 1.500 inches in Hunter for example. Therefore in the scope to receiver example the inspector can only use a no-gage machined to say 2.001 inches lets say and 1.501 inches. If those no-go guages will not pass between the bottom of the scope tube and the top of the receiver then the rifle is legal in this example. I suggest delrin guages since an inspector does not want to gouge a comeptitor's equipment. I think Evelio is right in this matter. A dial caliper would not stand the test if it came to a court decision. A straight edge is the only go, no-go guage that would legally work for barrel taper. Another example is rifle weight. It will not hold up in court that scales are used to measure the exact weight of your rifle. The inspector does not need to know the exact weight of your rifle. All he needs to know is that your rifle does not exceed the total weight specified in the rulebook. For example: To be absolutely legal in most court systems for Hunter Smallbore a balance or beam scale set at 8 and 1/2 pounds would have to be used. You set the rifle on the scale and if it does not make the pointer rise the rifle is legal. The inspector cannot legally find out whether your rifle weighs 7 pounds or 8 pounds 7 ounces. That is when the inspector is "cheating". Once the inspector gains this information about your equipment he can pass it on to your competitors so that they do not have to do the research and development to achieve the same performance level in racing that you have worked so hard for. This is how the inspector "cheats" for his "friends" by learning everything you did to your engine during the inspection of your engine and passing that technical information on to others.
Do not jump on me for this reply. I just wanted to illustrate how fortunate we are to participate in a great sport where the "Indian" is much more important than the "arrow'.

atomicbrh are you a lawyer by chance?

No, I never knew of any lawyer who had patience in the direction of building and developing racing engines. Got two lawyers in the immediate family and when I built racing engines I built and wrenched for a lawyer who became a Federal judge during the time we were racing. When the money and the engine building reputation is on the line people go to their attorney because racing is a business at the highest levels. When people think they are being cheated out of wins that results in sales for their business usually their only choice is to take the sanctioning body to court. There is more litigation in racing than you could ever imagine. Also more in the technical apsects of golf and baseball than you would ever imagine. It is just not publicized. You build engines that win races, people get jealous. Racing was a terrible addiction. That is why my stuff was fast. I worked on it night and day. I have to stay away from race tracks or I will get sucked into that life again. Silhouette is much better for families than any pursuit I have found.

Rule is one thing shooting is another and has been pointed out it’s a human performance sport. Push the rule, get into some sort of altercation or even long looks and whispers from the other guys, then try to focus on Breaking that 10th Ram for the final leg of your Grand Slam.

Play on the edge and keep it out of your thoughts, ? I can’t, bought a used Hunter Class 7mm08 one time, fellow that sold it to me told me in low tones trigger was under 2 lbs, but he would not say anything about it. All I could think about shooting was that &@#* trigger. Entered it in Standard until I could get it adjusted. No good reason to work on the edge when it has no benefit. Forget the equipment, it makes no difference as long as it’s up to snuff.

Boats

boats wrote:Rule is one thing shooting is another and has been pointed out it’s a human performance sport. Push the rule, get into some sort of altercation or even long looks and whispers from the other guys, then try to focus on Breaking that 10th Ram for the final leg of your Grand Slam.

Play on the edge and keep it out of your thoughts, ? I can’t, bought a used Hunter Class 7mm08 one time, fellow that sold it to me told me in low tones trigger was under 2 lbs, but he would not say anything about it. All I could think about shooting was that &@#* trigger. Entered it in Standard until I could get it adjusted. No good reason to work on the edge when it has no benefit. Forget the equipment, it makes no difference as long as it’s up to snuff.

Boats

For me, this isn't about pushing the rule; it's about complying with it. I wanted to ensure that the general consensus was that it was legal for hunter. I usually have my triggers breaking closer to 2 1/4lbs than 2lbs just to ensure that I do comply when it comes to the test. Better safe than sorry.

Who cares what anybody thinks about another in the act of putting lead downrange? That is the first rule of shooting well. Be cold blooded; have ice water running through your veins. Mentally Tough. Nothing can rattle you. Do a search and read about these two men. Smokey Yunick and Titantic Thompson. I have taught a lot of people to shoot and shoot well. Many a huge, burly man would confide in me that they were not used to shooting in front of a big crowd watching every move they make. I always tell them that most people are selfish. Do not be nervous. They only care what they look like. They do not care what you look like when you are shooting. Just put that lead down range where it is supposed to be and do not ever worry about what anybody thinks of you. That is called self-confidence and shooting helps build self-confidence in all of us. That is another reason this is a great sport for everyone.

The rules says taper, it does not say how much or that it be visible. The 1710HB has a slight taper and at first glance does not show a taper. This model has pasted tech several times at nationals for hunter. IMHO do not read more into the rule than is there. Does the barrel decrease in diameter along its length? Yes then it is OK. NO it is a standard rifle.


Greg

I shoot a Wooster stocked 1710 HB in both classes. My issue was making weight; it has never been about barrel taper.

We should all shoot the same rifle with the same ammo and same scope and scope settings. Then we would eliminate the equipment issue and it would be up to the shooter to preform. But then, the rifle might not fit the shooter…

I agree that we have a pretty good thing going for us. I've heard some complaints that Standard and hunter are to much alike and that Standard rifle should just be an "open" class where anything goes. If you ask me, I like the way things are.

Standard class is a dying class. I think that if they don't open it up eventually it will end up going away on it's own. As it is, it seems that out of all the matches I have gone to about 90% of the people are shooting one gun only. As new shooters come in they are advised to get a hunter gun. Sure, some of them (including me) might decide that they want to try a standard rifle... and then within a year (for me at least) realize that two guns are a pain in the ass. There is not enough difference to make it worth it. Investing another $2000 to $3000 just to be able to shoot a gun that is only 1 pound heavier and has a lighter trigger is just not worth it.

The problem is... those 90% of the people that use one gun might have to begrudgingly invest in a second gun in order to keep winning if the Standard class was turned into Open. Maybe instead of shooting two rifles and two matches we should shoot 80-shot matches with ONE gun with a lunch break after 40 shots.

Totally off topic now!

On the off topic topic, I think standard should be wide open too. Make a difference in the guns, and let the gear geeks go hog wild figuring out the 'best' setup. I'm not sure the scores would change much, but it would be fun to see all the high end guns!

OldRanger wrote:On the off topic topic, I think standard should be wide open too. Make a difference in the guns, and let the gear geeks go hog wild figuring out the 'best' setup. I'm not sure the scores would change much, but it would be fun to see all the high end guns!

It'd be cool to have an open class so we could shoot an Anschutz 2013 (or FWB or Walther) position gun with a fully adjustable stock, but it wouldn't make much difference in scores. The bottom line is that the shooters that shoot a LOT with their hunter guns are going to be the shooters that shoot a space gun a LOT and those shooters are generally the ones that are going to shoot the best. Changing the rules isn't going to make shooters shoot more and that, not fancy rifles, is what makes for high scores in this game. You simply can't buy your way to good scores in this game. Also, a 1712 with a Pharr/Wooster stock or a 54:18 Frankenhunter is basically a match rifle that meets the hunter rules. You don't lose much with one of those rifles to any rifle in the world.

If you want to see what a position rifle will do for you, shoot air rifle silhouette with a nice target airgun. My scores aren't much different with a target gun than they are for my sporter airgun. I can usually shoot a better score with my open air gun but that is because of the increased speed of the pellet. So, if we shot smallbore open class with say, a 17 HMR, then scores would go up because of the bullet velocity. But, as long as we are shooting 22 Long rifle, the scores won't change much.

I am still all for opening up standard to an open class, but I can't say that I would shoot a different rifle in standard even then. There is just too much advantage to having one rifle with one set of sight settings and one trigger over both classes.

Dustin

For us it is about space in the vehcicle. We carpool to the closest monthly Smallbore Match which is Winnsboro. Also Air Rifle there in the afternoon after Smallbore. Four people. 2 rifles for each person. 8 cases in the back of a mini-van to save gas. We each carry a Smallbore Hunter rifle and then coordinate which Air Rifles each of us will bring so that we shoot all divisions. One person carries a Springer, one person a target rifle and so on. Just no room to carry a Heavy rifle for Smallbore. We gave up on them for maximum participation. I do not want to buy a bus like the Steiger family. It would only go to matches.

atomicbrh wrote: I do not want to buy a bus like the Steiger family. It would only go to matches.

That would be the VOD (Van Of Death) and then now the VOD Deux....

BTW, all Steigers podiumed at the state match today....