I don't agree at all, Dakota1. I am quite regularly bested by people shooting much lesser guns. If you give one top-end master shooter a custom rifle built to their specs and another some factory stock $200 bolt action 22lr rifle, there's a good chance that the one with the custom rifle might win, but I wouldn't put a lot of money on it. These are people that win or lose on one more animal missed, and only addresses maybe 5% of the silhouette shooters. For everyone else, the rifle really makes so little difference that it isn't even in the top 5 reasons for winning or losing.

There is a clear distinction though between entry level class,which there
doesn't exist and entry level equipment,of which there are many examples.
It's unfortunate that our sport is not as easy as breathing, but then what following would it have , there would be nothing to strive for.
It is well and good for many to say 'have fun in your sport' but when
it comes right down to it ,it still takes considerable effort and work to excel
at this . The individual has to like this sport to pursue it and do well.
That's the fun!

I don't think any concession should be made to pretenders and those who
do answer the calling will find the ways and means to pursue it.
regards
Andrew Patchett

Not to beat a dead horse. There are many valid points that have been brought up. I am trying to understand the sport. What is the intent of having two classes?

Dakota1
That name sounds like a call-sign for a C-47. Brings back a few memories.
I think some of the posts on this thread are getting cross-threaded with
the 'Claim rifle' thread, however I'll try to answer your question.
There has been greater evolution of the Hunter rifle class.
Scores shot with Hunter are at Standard rifle and in some circumstances
are surpassing Standard rifle scores.
Regardless what has been allowed in the past and now disallowed like
chin-guns, Standard rifle basically allows a match rifle as long as it fits the
jig and meets weight so the evolution has stopped or slowed considerably.
There are still a number of Standard rifle users so I don't think the class
will disappear too soon however many competitors are using one rifle
in both classes and the reasons have already been expressed.
If you haven't been shooting silhouette that long then you have entered
the game at a point without having witnessed the transition.
One can only speculate the changes that may come but I think the Hunter
class development is approaching it's end.
The original intent was to have a heavy rifle similar to a SB match rifle
without the anatomical aids and have a light rifle, hunter class that
accomodated those with off-the-shelf sporters and no match rifle,
but as with many sports evolution occurs and we have what we have today.

Having just started this game, I will tell you my experiance with changing rifles.

I started the game with my bone stock 10/22. This rifle has a terrible trigger and was responsible for some of my misses. I have not messured it but 6-8 lbs and very creapy with no indication of when it will fire.

If you gave this rifle to a master shooter and he shot against another master shooter with my anschutz rifle, the master shooter with the anschutz would win.

My personal improvement was 100 percent in my first match with the anschutz. This is because I can squeeze the trigger without jerking the gun. This is not possible with the 10/22.

With all this said, I believe that the equipment has the smallest part to play in a win when the equipment is relatively close.

Ok, it's probably true if you go from what's about the worst rifle to try silhouette with (factory stock 10/22) to one of the best (Anschutz) there might be a difference. If you go from just-as-cheap but decent rifle like the Savage bolt guns with the Accutriggers to an Anschutz, then the difference wouldn't be as much. Heck, the difference between the factory stock 10/22 and the Savage would be a lot bigger than the between the Savage and the Anschutz.

Jason wrote:Ok, it's probably true if you go from what's about the worst rifle to try silhouette with (factory stock 10/22) to one of the best (Anschutz) there might be a difference. If you go from just-as-cheap but decent rifle like the Savage bolt guns with the Accutriggers to an Anschutz, then the difference wouldn't be as much. Heck, the difference between the factory stock 10/22 and the Savage would be a lot bigger than the between the Savage and the Anschutz.

We have a local shooter who started with a Marlin HB bolt rifle. Shot well. Went out and got a 1712 in an effort to be able to shoot both classes. He has yet to yield the 'average' scores he posted with his ?$200-$300/ bolt rifle from across the counter of the local wal-mart / sporting goods store with his 1712 Anschutz. Good shooter, not someone that has only shot once. He shoot HP as well. He loves that marlin, and has no problem posting good scores with it.

It took me 1+ year to post a score with my cheater rifle that I was able to post with my stock 1712. Notice I said = and not top, don't know that I'v done that yet.....

The first 22 match I ever saw (I don't remember what the rules were at that time) was being shot with what everyone had in their closet. The ammo was junk and the scores were low.

A little later I went to a match in Canada and for hunter class, you could not change any settings on your scope after the match started. You had to shoot 'Kentucky windage'.

Sometime in the lat 80s, the classes were changed to "Heavy" and "Light" rifle. The light rifle looked like the heavy rifle except it didn't have a bull barrel. I just about bought one but before I did, they changed the class again. Then it had to be 'out of the box' and as a match director, it was just about impossible to run the 'tech inspection' at a big match. Did that gun come with a plastic stock? Are all the trigger parts from the factory? My stock was plywood and I heard lots of bitching. I started carring a copy of a page out of the catlog to prove mine was legal.

Then they adoped the rues we have now. Easy for 'tech' and a little harder on the pocket if you want to keep up with the crowd.

My shooting has gone to hell the past few years and my 1712 has not turned in a better score than my old hunter 10/22 lizzard gun. It's the shooter but you can't convince a new person that comes to the range and sees all the expensive hunter guns in the rack.

I hope some of you older shooters can fill in some of the details of the progression of the hunter gun that I have outlined above.

Okay...Here's one of the most closely guarded secrets in silhouette shooting.....The only reason for two classes and having smallbore and hi power silhouette............Is that it gives us more reasons to build new guns.......

Kittty

Hello,
I have to agrre with ajj, You show me a person who says"I would love to shoot this game but I can't afford it",does not and WILL not shoot this game for some other reason. These discussions on equipment races and custom hunter guns is getting absolutely rediculous. Same song and dance. Either you want to build a custom or not and if you don't, do not blame losing to guys that did build custom hunters on the guns. It is still the person squeezing the trigger.

Poor equipment will break any shooter, but good equipment won't fix a poor shooter. I was shooting AA with so-so equipment late last year, and now I'm shooting B with great equipment! Go figure. The main difference now is that when I miss, there's no doubt where the problem is.

This game is about knowing how to use what you've got and practice. Lots and lots of practice...

I pretty much agree with what has been said but the additional point I would make is that having a class for "stock" 22s seems like a loosing proposition. There is nothing that stops a manufacturer from coming out with a gun with a bull barrel, thumbhole or other somewhat specialized stock, great trigger, etc.. Ammo can be less than $2/50 to around $10/50. It seems fairly practical to me to just say no thumb-holes but I struggle a bit with the "look like a hunting rifle" aspect. When I made my new stock, I left the forend large and flat on the bottom because I have big hands, I don't like to contact the barrel, and I shoot from a bench a fair amount. I don't know if it's legal for hunter or not. At my club the hunter score is often tougher than the open score so I guess it doesn't really matter. I would like it better if there was a bit more definition of what a hunter stock is - does the forend have to taper in width and depth, for instance, and if so, how much? A Pharr doesn't look like it tapers much so I didn't taper mine much.

Jim

The two things that matter in improving equipment are the way the rifle "fits" and the trigger. Benchrest-level accuracy is not necessary for silhouette...nice, but not necessary.
When the rules free up the stock and trigger options and you decide to get the best, the price jumps right to the $2700 area. The best trigger is Anschutz and you might as well have it attached to an Anschutz action because hanging that trigger on a cheaper action is expensive. A custom-designed, low-volume, hand-fitted stock naturally costs money. The good news is that it doesn't get any worse. Spending $27,000 won't buy any advantage at all. If you're handy with tools and willing to experiment with the fit until it's right, you can save a bundle.

Is an Anschutz 1712 with a Leupold FX-IIIx25 three times the rifle that a CZ Varmint with a Weaver KT15 is? That's the cost difference, plus the tuning time you'll have to invest in the CZ, and both shoot very, very well.

If you have the budget and like shooting better than tinkering, get the Anschutz, but nobody that knows sneers at a home brew CZ.

I am the "local shooter who started with a Marlin HB bolt rifle" that GeoNLR referred to. He is correct. My first 8 matches with the Marlin (model 880SQ) were at an average of 19/40. I then bought a 1712, but could only average 14 animals per match with it (6 matches). The following year (05), I shot 36 matches all with the 1712 at an average of 21/40. My average finally bumped up another 2 animals last season, but it was essentially a year and a half before my scores with the 1712 were consistently better than with the Marlin.