.22 WMR for PC?

[RAGS]

Tim (Tlee), How did your reloads work out? What were the results with LILGUN Powder? RAGS

[Tlee]

Tim (Tlee), How did your reloads work out? What were the results with LILGUN Powder? RAGS

Rags -

Sorry, no luck... I ran out of daylight and time. I got so tied up with my 30-30 and 357 loads this weekend I didn't get around to checking the H110 or Lilgun loaded 22WMRs. Based on what I saw today with my 357 H110/Lilgun loads, I'm gonna drop the Lilgun 22WMR LilGun drop way back from the load I was gonna try.... I'm gonna start out a bit more conservative... The LilGun velocities in the 357 were a couple hundred FPS faster than what I'd assumed they'd be based on comparisons I'd done with H110. Basically, what I'm trying to accomplish is get the 7g of H110 velocities using LilGun instead... Since LilGun isn't quite as "pressure peaky".

-Tim

[Tlee]

Did some testing today of the 22WMRs out of my 10" Contender (figured it's a little stronger/safer if there's a pressure problem than the lever gun). All testing done at 100 meters.

The 40gr SP Fiocchis I use on C-P-Ts averaged 1730FPS into a group about 2.5"
The 50gr HP Federal 757s "as they come" averaged 1460FPS into a 1-3/4" group.
The 50gr HP Federals with 7gr of H110 averaged 1665FPS into a 4" group.
I tried a 46gr FP Hornet bullet over 7gr of H110 and it averaged 1650FPS into a 2" group.... I didn't shoot any of them in the lever gun yet, but this one WOULD cycle through it.
I then tried a 50gr SP "Varminter" over 7gr of H110 and it averaged 1673 into a 1" group. This one, being much longer OAL, will NOT cycle through the levergun.

I've always noticed a 22mag being louder than most of the 22Hornets in a HP match, but I will say all the H110 loads were definitely "more obnoxious" than factory loads out of the 10" T/C barrel. Recoil was very manageable, but the blast wave from H110 out of the 10" barrel is definitely louder than the WSF or W231/HP38 loads most folks around here shoot in the Hornet. I'm sure it won't be nearly as noticeable out of the rifle. I did not try any LilGun loads as I wanted to get a good baseline with the H110 1st.

my .02,

-Tim

[edgehit]

Tim,
Did you get out and shoot today or is your range still frozen? I got out late in Fort Worth (over 50 degrees today!) and shot some base groups with Fed 50's. They didn't shoot so well in my bolt Annie - lots of fliers opening up groups to 3" or more. I've pulled bullets on a box and will work up to Jason's load of 7.1gr H110 and see what I get using his method of reusing the pulled bullet. I've decided to proof the loads in my bolt gun for safety reasons and not risk damaging my winchester.

I'm interested to see what you get with Lil'gun.

I'll probably end up with a 25-20 or 32 in the end, but my 9422m Legacy is a pleasure to shoot. Just hate to start over with another rifle. What am I saying ???

[Jason]

Just a tip on the reusing pulled bullets method. If you can see where the fingers of the collet were on the bullet when it was pulled, use that one for practice only. Once you've done some, you'll be able to pull them without denting the fairly soft bullets from those Federal 757 loads. When seating, I seat once and then lower the ram so I can spin the round 180 degrees and seat again. I also got slightly better accuracy seating the bullets so that they're .010" off the lands. This was a LOT longer than factory seating depth.

[Tlee]

Tim,
Did you get out and shoot today or is your range still frozen? I got out late in Fort Worth (over 50 degrees today!) and shot some base groups with Fed 50's. They didn't shoot so well in my bolt Annie - lots of fliers opening up groups to 3" or more. I've pulled bullets on a box and will work up to Jason's load of 7.1gr H110 and see what I get using his method of reusing the pulled bullet. I've decided to proof the loads in my bolt gun for safety reasons and not risk damaging my winchester.

I'm interested to see what you get with Lil'gun.

I'll probably end up with a 25-20 or 32 in the end, but my 9422m Legacy is a pleasure to shoot. Just hate to start over with another rifle. What am I saying ???

Yep... I did make it out there today.... 65deg F!... however the wind was gusting 5-10mph, so accuracy was questionable. Still testing out of the Contender "just in case" though.
Here's the results from today's tests (5 shots of each):

• - Factory 50gr Federal 757s, averaged 1424FPS into a 2-1/2" group
  - Factory 40gr Fiochi, averaged 1745FPS into a 1-1/4" group
  - 50gr HP with 5.5gr LilGun averaged 1575FPS into a 1" group with a single flyer out 2" (velocity was 1483 on that one... might have been a light load)
  - 50gr HP with 3gr of WSF averaged 1257FPS into a 4" x 1-1/2" group (pretty inconsistent... 1196 to 1318 velocities)

-Tim

PS - BTW... 4gr of WSF is TOO MUCH!... Even though the 1st 3 shots averaged 1624FPS into 1", it had a head/case separation on the 4th shot... With 3gr being so inconsistent, I don't think WSF is gonna be a player, even though my 5gr of WSF in the Hornet usually has all shots touching with a 50gr bullet and a dime will cover the 55gr group.

[edgehit]

65 degrees! Question - what's going to happen when we shoot these loads in July that we worked up in February?

Jason - Thanks for the tips. Some of my pulled bullets have collet marks.

[edgehit]

I tried 55gr V-Max with the tip clipped off in 22 wmr over 6gr H110 and I assure everyone that the bullet will not stabilize. I literally could not hit the 2'x2' target board at 100yds with a single shot out of some 15 sent down range.

I did stuff the federal 50gr back in and seated to OAL of 1.375" and worked up to 7.3gr H110. Four groups shown for comparison. One is factory Federal 757 and it is a really poor group of over 4". This round would not shoot (including the factory load) until 6.9gr of powder. Shooting conditions were horrible, winds gusting from 15 to 25 mph, mild temp. All groups shot with an Anschutz 1516 with 15x scope. I'm going back to try 7.1 and 7.3 gr with 50gr V-max (clipped tip) with scope and see how it goes. Last observation - H110 is dirty burning stuff. Lots of suet in the chamber and on the bolt face, likely from blow-by when shooting 55gr over 6.2gr H110. That load exhibited sticky bolt lift and I quit shooting it. I'm anxious to see how TLee's LilGun works out. BTW, notice how the groups walk up the ladder as pressure increases, the 7.3gr load is some 5" higher than the factory group.

[Jason]

Just an additonal note here. The only failure that I have heard of with the replacing of powder in the 22Mag was by a local snowbird who loaded up a bunch of the 50gr bullets with 7.3gr of H110. It was fine up here in the Pacific Northwest, but he went down to the hot southwest US (Arizona?) and one of the shots broke an extractor on his Winchester lever gun. I use a Marlin 57M that is a very strong design and keep it to 7.1gr of H110 since I have not lost a pistol cartridge ram with that load and it's very safe. Others have lost rams with that load due to weather conditions, though.

[Tlee]

Got some more testing done today. Another 65degree day, but with nearly non-existent breezes. All shots were taken at 100meters from a scoped 10" Contender on sandbags.
Here's the results from today's tests (5 shots of each):

• - Factory 40gr Fiochi SP averaged 1710FPS into another 1-1/4" group
  - Factory 50gr Federal 757 HP averaged 1434FPS into a 1-1/2" group
  - Federal 50gr HP with 6gr of LilGun averaged 1636FPS into a 1-1/4" group
  - Federal 50gr HP with 6.5gr of LilGun averaged 1764FPS into a 2-1/2" group
  - Federal 50gr HP with 6gr of Federal's factory ball powder averaged 1676FPS into a 1-1/2" group

My previous testing with the Fed 50gr HP and 7gr of H110 showed 1697FPS, so my guess is that the equivalent LilGun load would be in the 6.2gr to 6.3gr range.

Hopefully I'll get to test 6gr to 6.3gr of LilGun out of the Lever Gun next, now that I have a feeling for what the limits of the case are, pressure and capacity-wise.

-Tim

[Tlee]

Finally shot everything in the Lever Action. WX was a bit cooler (60deg F), winds were a bit gusty at times so I had to time the test shots in between the 5-7mph gusts. All groups were at 100m from a rest using a rear Williams peep and a Lyman 17AUG front with a post insert.

Here's the results from the tests (5 shots of each):

- Factory 40gr Fiochi SP averaged 1802FPS into a 2" group
- Factory 50gr Federal 757 HP averaged 1467FPS into a 2" group
- Federal 50gr HP with 6gr of LilGun averaged 1643FPS into a 7" group
- Federal 50gr HP with 6.5gr of LilGun averaged 1760FPS into a 3" group with one flyer 5" low/right
- Federal 50gr HP with 6gr of factory ball powder averaged 1788FPS into a 3-1/2" group
- Federal 50gr HP with 7gr of H110 averaged 1767FPS into a nice 1-1/4" group with one flyer 8" low

I was a bit surprised that only a couple showed a significant gain in velocity over the 10" barrel (basically the factory 40gr Fiochi and the one 50gr load using an increase in factory ball powder). Perhaps the factory ball powder is a bit slower burning than H110 or LilGun?

The real "head scratcher" for me are the flyers.... I seated the bullets to their factory OAL (within .003 or so... I've seen about that variance in the factory rounds), carefully weighed the powder charges and inspected the 50gr Federal bullets to ensure none were damaged from being pulled. While i was not able to find any with what I would consider damage, all had some slight collet marks. I've yet to be able to pull the 50gr bullets without some marks showing, regardless of the collet adjustment. It was interesting to me that I got no flyers out of the increased factory charge sample. Having said that though, I did only test fire 5 of each sample and who's to say that the 6th or 7th wouldn't have been a flyer.

Couple things come to mind...

Anyone tried a crimp on the factory 50gr bullet? My impression is the Federal 50gr bullets aren't really what I'd classify as a true jacketed bullet, but more of a "thick copper wash" similar to the Berry's plated bullets (which I've had nearly ZERO luck eliminating flyers using a crimp in my 357). Also, the 50gr Federal looks (to me) to be somewhat of a rebated base right about where it seats in the case's mouth? Not sure a crimp would even be possible/feasible on this particular bullet.

Lastly, I have identified a true jacketed 46gr Flat point Hornet bullet that should net a similar OAL as the Factory rounds, however my seater plug is damaging the nose of it and I need to modify/flatten the plug to where it won't cut into the nose. Not sure if the 46gr bullet would be that much better than the 50gr "copper wash" in knocking over the Ram, however it may help me understand if the flyer issue is powder/load related, or the nature of the bullet itself.

my .02,

-Tim

[edgehit]

Thanks for the update Tim. I avoided the gusting winds today and retreated to the loading bench where I weight sorted 1000 rds of 757 because I'm going to shoot this stuff at every critter. I hope it translates into a group that can stay on paper. ES = 1.1gr. Avg=73.22. St Dev= 0.16. I got 600 rounds that varied from 73.1 to 73.3g. I gave up on testing H110 loads and put 200 rounds loaded with 7.1-7.2g H110 in my range bag. They were seated to 1.375" OAL. This is nearly the maximum length that would operate in my rifle.

[Tlee]

Joe -

I weighed cases, bullets, and trickled every powder charge of 15 rounds late last week with 7gr of H110 and tried them again on Saturday AM... Even tried using a different case, thinking maybe it was a priming compound issue. Still having flyers (3-4 out of the 15).... Not gonna be feasible for me to use this round unless I can identify the cause. BTW, when I'm using the H110 rounds I do see some pressure signs (slight bulging in the headstamp center and one failure to extract easily) with the Fiocchi and Armscor cases (I suspect they are the same) that I'm not seeing with the Federal cases.

I also managed to successfully load 5 rounds of the 46gr FP Speers (royal PITB BTW), but didn't get to test them yet because I quit when I saw the pressure signs on the Fiocchi cases.

Haven't tried seating the bullet out further than factory OAL though. Not sure what, if any, affect that might have on flyers. I need to experiment to see what OAL will feed reliably.

-Tim

[AMB]

CCI HV, pull the bullet and replace with a 46 gr. speer. They work as good as a .22 mag is going to work for both functioning in a Lever gun and performing on 1/2 scale pistol targets. I simply seat them to the cannelure. I can pull a bullet and reload the new one in about 30 seconds. That was the main advantage with the Mag. quick easy reloading.

[Jason]

Is this the Speer bullet you guys are talking about?


http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/de ... ber=196704

If so, isn't that base hard to get started into the 22 Mag cases?