AA with the Hunter rifle

[1armoured]

Boats, I can't think of anyone that 'grip' there SB and very few that 'grip' their HP rifles. Most rest the rifle on their fingers or palm I don't even 'grip my 300WM. I have never been 'bit' by the scope. I guess this could go on forever but I still believe a person can very closly duplicate their off=hand hold with their bench sight-in. If we are argueing over less than 1/2 minute difference we both are wasiting our time.

Maybe time to think a bit more.

I doubt whether we all do the same things, bench or off hand.
Some of us like me are not far from being just AAA 'hackers' !

I'm with Boats here !

My bench/rest/bag shooting always is a higher POI than my off hand.

I sight off the bench, generally for windage and when shooting different ammo, configuration etc,
then shoot on paper silhouettes, offhand using my established POA on each animal,

and record my sight settings, both bench and off hand.

My actual off hand settings for each distance incorporate my average 'best outcome' POI group.
I tend to shoot a bit low, so I try and compensate by shooting up into the animal,
Sometimes with a bit firmer pull into the shoulder, when it won't just 'get up there' !

cheers,
SS

[Jason]

I shoot off the bench the way that I shot benchrest, when I wasn't shooting free recoil, to get the most accuracy out of the rifle/ammo for ammo testing and to get as precise elevation adjustments as possible. I shoot offhand the way to get the steadiest hold and cleanest trigger release for me. Those two styles are obviously not the same and the rifle does not recoil the same in them. My smallbore scope settings only differ by half a minute. My highpower settings differ by about one minute, depending on the load and how consistently I'm pulling the rifle into my should with my trigger hand.

[jbolt]

Hi Jerry G,

I'll way in since I brought it up in the first place.

I can only share "my" experience so I won't say it is right or wrong for any one individual but I think its worth the discussion.

I used to subscribe to the idea that I 'SHOULD' be able to establish my sight settings on the bench and shoot off hand with the same settings. I always knew that I had a tendency to shoot low and right and spent considerable time trying to understand why and correct it. When I bought my TX200 to practice at home I quickly discovered that bench settings on a springer are vastly different than offhand. I don't know if it is the dwell time, double recoil or what, I just know it does not translate from bench to offhand by as much a 2-3 moa. Even heavier vs lighter clothing, hold pressure, hand position on the grip and most importantly quality of follow through will alter the POI considerably. This is when I began to sight in offhand, both for air rifle and SB.

I approach each target from left to right. That's what I find most comfortable with a scope. I believe that it takes me a little longer than others to mentally process the sight picture and then squeeze the trigger which lends to the tendency to shoot right of my break point. In stead of fighting it or trying to change my break point I compensate with my windage setting.

Several months ago I was talking with one of our master shooters and he brought up working on inner position, something I had never heard of. The idea was that you have established your outer position, ie hold, stance, body position and have a shot plan. The inner position was getting mind and body relaxed and ready to execute a good shot. As I have explored this concept I have discovered that if my shoulders and upper chest are tight I shoot low 1 to 1-1/2 moa from bench center. If I relax my chest and shoulders, but not so much that it compromises body support, my POI will raise 1/2 to 1 moa over bench center, a difference of 2-1/2 moa.

My mind, well that's a work in progress

J~

[boats]

Don't want over explain but the thread is how to shoot AA scores, guys need to know best zero methods. Couple of things going on to change offhand zeros from bench zeros.

Most good shooters approach with a set pattern. Right to left left to right , from under pulling up into the target whatever they normally do. You see the spot & pull the trigger; rifle is still moving into the target, lag time if it was perfectly wind centered off a bench will cause a right to left approach to print a left strike. If zeros are obtained offhand on paper you will compensate for the lag time and movement when you see what's going on with more right windage cranked on. It's no different than shotgun shooting see the right spot pull the trigger and shot column meets the clay target. Were you pull the trigger is not were the shot intersects the bird. Guns swinging bird is flying

Other thing is bounce on recoil. Most extreme example is a 1911 shot classic bulls eye fashion one hand hold off hand in your pants pocket. Take the same pistol same shooter grab it tight two hands facing the target square, group at 25 yards can be nearly a foot off.

In practice benching a Rim fire close as possible to offhand position perhaps 1/2 moa difference in elevation, could be more windage depending on the individual and how they approach. What I often see with beginners our matches is resting the rifle on the forearm from a hard rest. Those blocks of wood always lying around the range. It throws shots much higher, from spotting misses in the actual match they shoot low as much as two minutes of angle from the offhand position

Rule of thumb any rifle sport zero the way you are going to shoot the match.

Boats

[DavidABQ]

Not really related to the topic being discussed but today I moved to AA in the Hunter class.


I am very happy tonight! I have been training very hard at developing an approach or routine, reminding myself, "don't take a bad shot" and trying to concentrate on the shot at hand and not beat myself up over an earlier missed shot.

The advice given in this thread was very helpful.

Thank you everyone.

[Innocent]

Congrats David, on your class climb! As for the rifle zeros, they are different for different positions, bench, prone or offhand. Typically the trigger hand sits on the rifle differently in each of the positions, which is going to change the pressure on the trigger.
Learning to relax the stomach muscles, which also help the relaxation of the shoulders and upper body will reduce the amount movement you see in the scope, I prefer to call this balance, how the rifle sits in the position. Any muscle tightening in any part of the body will introduce visible movement in the scope, so developing a routine of setting the 'outer postion' that can be repeated is a great way start the development of the 'internal position' or mental game, such as sight picture, etc.

Mary

[boats]

Nice work glad it went well. AAA, next step, is all about position. Just like Mary says know your body and how it's set up every shot.

Boats

[Jerry G]

Jason, I do agree with what you said but............... Sighting in a rifle for shooting silhouette is not trying to get the tightest group. It is to get a good zero for the rifle match. Now, if you are testing ammo, I guess you would shoot the way you get the best results. As a master, you probably have a much tighter hold than a lower class shooter has. For someone in the lower classes that has trouble holding on the animals, they would NEVER see the 1/2 minute difference that you are talking about.

I guess that a good sight-in would differ for people with different skill levels. Once again, I think a persons method of shooting off the bench should be as close as possible to the way they hold the rifle when they are shooting a match so they can have confidence in their zeros. If a person doesn't have confidence in their equipment their match will not go well.

[bigmike6970]

David, good job on AA with hunter, I am working on getting there with my standard. Which if we remember is the same rifle I use for hunter.
This thread has a lot of good tips that I have been working on and still a ways to go.

Mike

[Innocent]

BigMike....when shooting at CRC, stand upwind of us short people and we do well! Good to get a chance to shoot that range again, despite it's challenges in certain weather.

Mary

[bigmike6970]

Mary,
I get that comment for the regulars when it is windy, I guess I make a good wind break.
It was good seeing you there at the state match.
Sunday was frustrating with the wind and rain, But I still had fun, and I managed to get a 5 in a Row Chickens and Pigs, and take 1st in my class.

BigMike

[kevinbear]

I gave up some time ago on "getting zero's from the bench" get an oversized set of plain round swingers and sight in on them. Getting zero's off the bench generally results in getting zero's on your score card!
kb