Hi Everybody

Well this is a subject that nobody wants to bring up during a match. That needs to change.

Sandbagging is the nice term for what it really is CHEATING!!!!!!!! Anybody who comes to a match willing to do anything to win a prize they should turn around and go home. The only thing anybody should be concerned about at a match is shooting to the best of there ability. If you are shooting to the best of your ability and you jump into the next class at the match GREAT that is what the sport is about not winning prizes.

I have resolved myself to the fact that WE realy don't winn big prizes and most of us know who is cheating so it doesn't bother me that much. They have to live with themselves and their actions.

Muzzlebreak, Jerry G pretty much said it all. Most match regulars know who the people you are referring to are just as well as the sandbaggers themselves know who they are. Some do it for the recognition which is about all you will get at most matches and others will do it for the big prizes like they have at the Southern Nationals. Either way it is selfishness on their part that leads them to do it, and yes, it does take something away from the game for the rest of the folks that play it as it was intended. I may be wrong, but it sounds like you were the victim of one of these undesirables in our sport and if so, let it go and move on. They will typically move on to another "game" where they can "win" again among folks that don't recognize them for who they are. Keep competing against yourself striving at every match for that "personal best" and you will get many years of enjoyment from this sport. Getting bogged down and mad because of some sandbagger won't do your shooting any good, especially if you are thinking about it on the firing line.

i am gob smacked, i dont understand how or why someone would sandbag.why compete at all? it seems like thy could only sand bag afew times then be moved up anyways.

how is this done, just lots of practice then no matches?

I have seen it done by individuals having two books, one of which they use on days that they are sandbagging and for prizes at a bigger match and another that they use for days when they want to shoot well but not have it recorded in their "big match" book. I have also seen it as, and have heard someone admit to, purposefully missing targets near the end of the match when they are doing a little too well so they won't move up a class before or during a big match.

well, that is just unethical.....what do they do in the deer woods when no one is looking?

same as stealing.

why some one with that mind set even "competes" is beyond me.

I can't say that I understand it, either. I haven't had any bigger moments of pride than when I stood by the scoring board at the Conard Bernhardt Cup and saw my name listed with people like Cathy Winstead and Jared Perry after I made master. It took years of practice to make it there. No mere prize could compete with that moment.

Jason wrote:I have seen it done by individuals having two books, one of which they use on days that they are sandbagging and for prizes at a bigger match and another that they use for days when they want to shoot well but not have it recorded in their "big match" book. I have also seen it as, and have heard someone admit to, purposefully missing targets near the end of the match when they are doing a little too well so they won't move up a class before or during a big match.

One of the things that may help is if the NRA had our classifications on line just as they do with Pistol, International and other events. All scores for sanctioned matches would be sent into the NRA and they load them in the system and keep track of your classification. That way every score you shot in a registered match, except for local/fun matches, would be recorded.

I don't think it would help. The "big match" book is the one that is used in registered matches, where the other book is the one that is used in local monthly matches.

Jason wrote:I can't say that I understand it, either. I haven't had any bigger moments of pride than when I stood by the scoring board at the Conard Bernhardt Cup and saw my name listed with people like Cathy Winstead and Jared Perry after I made master. It took years of practice to make it there. No mere prize could compete with that moment.

Jason, That's why guys like you and me shoot this sport. I totally agree with you that no prize can compare with the personal pride of making master class. It takes much practice and time investment to make it to the master ranks and then to stay there. There are however people in every walk of life that place winning ahead of everything else. Some of them even have the mistaken impression that they are really winners.

Bob might have an idea that I had thought about before also. High Power service rifle shooters have some kind of national system maintained by the NRA for classifications much like the PGA has for golfers that like to play competitively have their handicaps kept in a database somewhere. I think that they do have a lot more shooters nationally than we do in rifle silhouette and that the score book system we have is more than adequate to keep track of our classifications. It all goes back to the fact that some people are going to try to cheat and get things that they really don't deserve, and some will get away with it. Danm, how did I get onto politics?

I really don't think that even a system like that would help. It would eliminate the "two book" way of sandbagging, but it wouldn't eliminate missing shots on purpose if a sandbagger were doing a little too well to stay in the current class. I think the only real way to handle it is through peer pressure. I've seen a few friendly comments like "You better miss a few or you're going to shoot above your class!" or "Be careful! You're using your big match book today!" actually let sandbaggers know that everyone knew what they were doing. Sometimes you need to be careful with it, though, as perception isn't always reality. There are indeed some times when a shooter is shooting above class, gets to excited, and chokes on the last animal. If you've shot with them a few times, it's pretty easy to know the difference, though.

Jason, Like you said, if you shoot with them a few times, you get to know the difference. We have a core group of around a dozen or more shooters in S. Louisiana and I feel that I can safely say that there are none among us that I can think of that would even be the sandbagging type. There are the guys that have topped out in AA, and some that have broken into AAA, but no longer even post AAA scores except few and far between anymore. The rest of us keep shooting several matches a month and fire and dry fire a lot in practice between matches in the hopes of first breaking into master class and then maybe winning a big match or two in our career. The top shooters have bad days and those are your opportunities to win matches. One of our regulars and probably the core guy in our group occasionally shoots 38s and 39s when he is not crossfiring on the wrong bank, but he has days where he may take a few bad shots and only hits 34. Those are the days where a new master shooter or one that only has a personal best of 35 or 36 can step up and win a match. On the rare occasion that does happen, it means a lot to the shooter that knocks the king off the hill even at a small monthly match.

Sandbaggers would stand out at the club level and typically won't hang around very long once they realize that others have caught on. They should be dealt with on the club level before they can get to the larger matches where real competitors deserve the prizes.

In my most diplomatic way, I can only clasify a "sandbagger" as the ultimate "loser." In any class but master, missing shots on purpose can only mean you are mentally defective in some way.

In reality, there is only one "winner" in any given match and that is "match winner."

For any competitive shooter not to strive to do the best they can and set a goal of becoming a master shooter as soon as they can, is to show that they are not a true sportman and athlete. Of course, not everyone will reach that goal but that does not mean the goal should not be set.

Jim T, I don't agree with you on the only one winner. Anyone that has shot a personal best is a winner in my mind. Many of us shoot for the personal satisfaction of how well we shoot against ourselves. Some of us don't shoot as well as we have shot in the past for many reasons., mostly age and health. Sandbagging is just a big lie to the sandbagger himself. It seems the assholes in this sport don't stick around for very long because the rest of the shooters start shunning them.

Sandbagging for silhouette prizes? I just don't see it. Heck, those pen plaques I won in Ridgway only cost me 2 grand... I go to sil matches for the hang. If you want professional sandbaggers, try the smallbore prone expert class at Camp Perry..