What do you all think? Does a "tube gun" fall within the NRA rules? Specifically the shape, not the weight. Obviously the cheekrest would be adjusted at or below the centerline of the bore. My main concern would be with the first sentence in the section outlined below. I hate ambiguous specifications like "traditionally". At what point does something become a "tradition"? Maybe by the rules we should be shooting Kentucky rifles. The rules do reference Fajen, McMillan, H-S Precision and others. My interpretation is that everything else falls into "and others".

Should there be an official committee that you can submit your stock to and get it approved/certified? And then, as long as it fits in "the box" at matches across the nation and is certified by the NRA then there is no question.

Section 3.1.d:
(d) Stock: The stock must be traditionally styled and may not be bent and/or twisted so as to deviate from
conventional configurations such as factory rifle stocks or silhouette stocks as manufactured by Fajen,
McMillan, H-S Precision, and others. The forend, including the trigger guard mounts and screws, shall not
exceed 2 1/4 inches wide, and 2 1/4 inches deep measured from the centerline of the bore. Magazines do
not have to conform to stock measurements but those that extend below the stock line may not be used as
support as per Rule 3.I(h) and 3.14. The forend shall extend a minimum of 8 inches forward of the forward
edge of the receiver ring. The comb shall not extend above the centerline of the bore, but Monte Carlo roll
may rise 1/2 inch on the off side. The toe of the stock including buttplate or recoil pad shall be no more
than 7 inches below the centerline of the bore. Buttplate or recoil pad may not extend below the lower line
of the stock

THe photos above are just for reference. I realize that those two have the cheekrest too high. The top one can adjust so that the cheekrest is lower.

Here is another photo. This is a factory Savage "Law Enforcement" model. Not what I am considering but does reflect the AR style grip and buttstock of the tube guns. This one is way over the weight limit. This one is outfitted with a magazine which would have to be removed or not used for support. Again, just referencing the shape. If it met the weight requirements for STANDARD class... would this be legal?

I think the detached hand grip will cause problems. I need to dig out my rule book...

Trent, if the rifle does not pass inspection at Nats (does not fit the jig) its not legal. You can trace on a large piece of paper the measurements as listed on the rule book. I am willing to bet the pistol grip does not fit the jig. If you only want it to shoot your local matches I do not think you would have much trouble using it unless you win the matches with it.

Do you think it sticks down further than the H-S precision? These things have a long grip. This is what I have now, but I'm not a fan. I've always loved the feel of AR's during my military days and the grips with the palm swells are extremely comfortable. I don't have a full rule book, only what is accessible on the web at the NRA website. I'll take a look at Bonner's book this weekend and see if I can find anything that would rule it out. I don't remember any measurements for the grip specified, only the forearm width, cheekrest and heel drop. I'll see if I can find more.

Thanks guys. I know how the "is this legal" threads can get real old.

Trent, I checked at least six of my Std class stocks made by different manufactures and in all of them the pistol grip did not extend past the stock's toe.
I think that is where you are going to run into problems if you want to use a stock like the ones in the pictures. I am not a purist or against anybody using something like what you want to use. I just pointing out some things before you spend a lot of money and find out you can't legally use it in competition. With an extended pistol grip you would have to have a trigger that would accept a very long custom trigger shoe. I've had several H&S Precision stocks (Spoden style and thumb hole) and I remember that although they did have large pistol grips they were more or less conventional and not different than others like Anschutz, McMillan, Mark Pharr Standard, Fajen, etc.

Trent, FYI The NRA prints the rule books every 5 years and announces changes ( and publishes) to the rule book every year in the Shooting Sports. So a printed copy my even have less than what is available on the web site.
Looks like I will be seeing you at least on day this weekend and probably both.
Mary

Awesome! Can't wait to see you!

I use this site for NRA rule book info. I guess I though it wasn't as detailed as the written book.

lone ringer wrote:Trent, I checked at least six of my Std class stocks made by different manufactures and in all of them the pistol grip did not extend past the stock's toe.
I think that is where you are going to run into problems if you want to use a stock like the ones in the pictures. I am not a purist or against anybody using something like what you want to use. I just pointing out some things before you spend a lot of money and find out you can't legally use it in competition. With an extended pistol grip you would have to have a trigger that would accept a very long custom trigger shoe. I've had several H&S Precision stocks (Spoden style and thumb hole) and I remember that although they did have large pistol grips they were more or less conventional and not different than others like Anschutz, McMillan, Mark Pharr Standard, Fajen, etc.

Those socks are a drop in fit for common actions. No special triggers needed. The all aluminum receiver area is heavy however.

One thing about the grip being below the heel on those rifles is that they are set up for prone/tactical and the buttplate is adjusted up real high. Way higher than what we would typically set up for (7" down from the centerline of the bore).


I would love to hear others opinions. I'm not thin skinned in anyway so if you think using something like this would be challenged or against the spirit of silhouette then don't be afraid to let me have it. My thoughts are that the Standard class should meet weight and measurements and other than that we should be able to play around a little. If you think about it an "AR" style tube gun is just a thumbhole stock without the full thumbhole being there.

Trent, staying away from the legality of the stock for silhouette in my opinion the fore end of the stock is just as important as the grip or the comb. The pictures of the stocks you posted do not seem very comfortable for offhand shooting since we can't use shooting coats or slings. I would think that stocks like the ones used in air rifle which is an off hand sport would give us silhouette shooters a great advantage if they would let us use them. Stocks for the 1807-1907 and newer Anschutz models would also be ideal.

Innocent wrote:Trent, FYI The NRA prints the rule books every 5 years and announces changes ( and publishes) to the rule book every year in the Shooting Sports. So a printed copy my even have less than what is available on the web site.
Looks like I will be seeing you at least on day this weekend and probably both.
Mary

"...every five years..." or whenever they feel like it and without notice.

lone ringer wrote:Trent, staying away from the legality of the stock for silhouette in my opinion the fore end of the stock is just as important as the grip or the comb. The pictures of the stocks you posted do not seem very comfortable for offhand shooting since we can't use shooting coats or slings. I would think that stocks like the ones used in air rifle which is an off hand sport would give us silhouette shooters a great advantage if they would let us use them. Stocks for the 1807-1907 and newer Anschutz models would also be ideal.

Tony,

I think that Greg would have something to say about the stock Trent is showing not looking "conventional". They certainly look awkward to me for our style of shooting. I believe that the rules of the military rifles prohibit the use of the magazine as a rest.

I love your comment about air rifle style stocks. The little bit of extra "belly" in them is really nice. It would be a nice Christmas present if the committee allowed something like that, but I would not hold my breath.

Cheers,

Rick

lone ringer wrote:Trent, I checked at least six of my Std class stocks made by different manufactures and in all of them the pistol grip did not extend past the stock's toe.
I think that is where you are going to run into problems if you want to use a stock like the ones in the pictures. I am not a purist or against anybody using something like what you want to use. I just pointing out some things before you spend a lot of money and find out you can't legally use it in competition. With an extended pistol grip you would have to have a trigger that would accept a very long custom trigger shoe. I've had several H&S Precision stocks (Spoden style and thumb hole) and I remember that although they did have large pistol grips they were more or less conventional and not different than others like Anschutz, McMillan, Mark Pharr Standard, Fajen, etc.

Tony,

I have an original Spoden stock that I traded Robert Massey for a some years ago, but I have not gotten around to putting a rifle in it and was wondering about the pistol grip. (It is not a thumbhole.) Do you think I would have to modify the pistol grip to use it as a Hunter Stock? I realize that it was made before there was any such thing as a Hunter Rifle, but I think it might make a good one. What do you think?

Rick

Rick, I do not think that particular stock would lend itself to modify. Its usually easier to build up a conventional stock (read small pistol grip and no Monte Carlo comb). As you probably know Some of Those older H&S Precision stocks are not that strong because they were made of a material they called fibertan so they are not really made of fiber glass and can break easily, also they are on the heavy side specially the ones that came with the aluminum bedding block. They were designed by Larry Spoden for shooting offhand and at that time it was one of the best designs ever made. H&S sold a bunch of them for about $85. I understand the new ones are made out of fiberglass or even carbon fiber but the price more than likely around $350 at any rate I do not think we can get away with using them in the Hunter class without somebody making a stink about it.