stock guns?
-
dave imas
- A Poster
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:41 pm
- Location: olympia, washington
- Contact:
Jason,
it's done. the rules are changed. we don't have a stock rifle class and, most probably, won't. at this point it really doesn't matter who wants one and who doesn't. changing the rules back would be a big mistake and piss off a bunch of people... rightly so. and adding a new class would create another host of challenges for those that run the matches. if one wants to shoot a stock rifle one can. nobody is stopping them. is part of the reason i shot a 6x scope for 2 years. this is coming from somebody that wishes the rules hadn't changed... that we still had a stock hunter class. that said, i wouldn't even consider changing back. too painful getting here.
just for grins i'm going to shoot my custom hunter in standard rifle and find a stock rifle, i heard the new savage for around $250 is a decent candidate, and shoot that in hunter for the next year. i'm tired of hearing people complain about the race and agree with all y'all that this is a skill game, not a equipment game. if you can't match skills with Cathy and Troy, and Dennis, and Dennis, and Bill, and William, and Jared, and Tim, and all the other shooters of that caliber, there ain't no rifle that is gonna save you. other side of that, of course, is that if you are going head to head with those folks, you better bring your best game and your best equipment.
and... another thought... the investment the good shooters make in ammunition is, perhaps, just as important as the investment in their rifle... and, repeating myself and everyone else here...
the investment in their skills is far more important than either of those or combined.
dave
it's done. the rules are changed. we don't have a stock rifle class and, most probably, won't. at this point it really doesn't matter who wants one and who doesn't. changing the rules back would be a big mistake and piss off a bunch of people... rightly so. and adding a new class would create another host of challenges for those that run the matches. if one wants to shoot a stock rifle one can. nobody is stopping them. is part of the reason i shot a 6x scope for 2 years. this is coming from somebody that wishes the rules hadn't changed... that we still had a stock hunter class. that said, i wouldn't even consider changing back. too painful getting here.
just for grins i'm going to shoot my custom hunter in standard rifle and find a stock rifle, i heard the new savage for around $250 is a decent candidate, and shoot that in hunter for the next year. i'm tired of hearing people complain about the race and agree with all y'all that this is a skill game, not a equipment game. if you can't match skills with Cathy and Troy, and Dennis, and Dennis, and Bill, and William, and Jared, and Tim, and all the other shooters of that caliber, there ain't no rifle that is gonna save you. other side of that, of course, is that if you are going head to head with those folks, you better bring your best game and your best equipment.
and... another thought... the investment the good shooters make in ammunition is, perhaps, just as important as the investment in their rifle... and, repeating myself and everyone else here...
the investment in their skills is far more important than either of those or combined.
dave
-
Guest
In the beginning the hunter class rifle was for beginners that had no classification or proper equipment but wanted to compete at the Nationals with rifles they had bought for hunting. In my opinion it was a big mistake to make two different classes and open the hunting class to every one because now a days it only gives us a second chance at winning something but it is the same people that win both awards most of the time.
The Chin guns were a legal way of cheating and the people that were good with them did not deny that fact. The reason they went away is because of the many shooters that wrote letters to the NRA Silhouette Committee demanding their demise. Kind of what happened to the air-rifle Sporter Class with the PCP rifles last year.
Most of the time trouble is created by some of us the shooters not the Silhouette Committee. Some of you may remember that the reason the Air Rifle Nationals were pulled after only two years is because a shooter went to Forth Worth to the air rifle Nationals and threatened to sue the NRA if they did not let him use a pre charged pneumatic rifle in the Sporter class. He shot the match under protest and won the match. The NRA then let him win the championship and he got his ring but pulled the match and we have not had another Air rifle Championship for almost 10 years.
The deal with the Hunting rifles went about the same way, at the beginning only factory rifles that were in catalogs were allowed then a bunch of
The Chin guns were a legal way of cheating and the people that were good with them did not deny that fact. The reason they went away is because of the many shooters that wrote letters to the NRA Silhouette Committee demanding their demise. Kind of what happened to the air-rifle Sporter Class with the PCP rifles last year.
Most of the time trouble is created by some of us the shooters not the Silhouette Committee. Some of you may remember that the reason the Air Rifle Nationals were pulled after only two years is because a shooter went to Forth Worth to the air rifle Nationals and threatened to sue the NRA if they did not let him use a pre charged pneumatic rifle in the Sporter class. He shot the match under protest and won the match. The NRA then let him win the championship and he got his ring but pulled the match and we have not had another Air rifle Championship for almost 10 years.
The deal with the Hunting rifles went about the same way, at the beginning only factory rifles that were in catalogs were allowed then a bunch of
-
kevinpagano
- AA Poster
- Posts: 448
- Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:10 pm
- Location: Rio Rancho, NM
- Contact:
-
dave imas
- A Poster
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:41 pm
- Location: olympia, washington
- Contact:
Mr./Ms. Guest,
My remembrance of history is just a bit different than yours on many of your accountances and, speaking of chin guns,would argue that if the stock fits the jig, it isn't cheating. I don't know if you remember the vote at national championship at Raton in , I think, 1989, where they put their legality to a vote of the over 100 shooters at the competitors dinner/meeting. All but one voted in favor of allowing the chin guns to continue as legal. They were then outlawed by the Sil. committee despite the vote. They were voted out because of a very few shooters that made a very loud stink and one specific committee member that hated them. All that said, they provided no real advantage and were a pain in the butt to shoot. I'm pretty certain that there was no real dip in scores or performance after they were outlawed that would suggest a signifcant advantage was gained by shooting them.
The gentleman that shot the air rifle nationals with the first pcp was, and i'll bet still is, a gigantic pain in the ass. That said, he was right. Period. Certainly wasn't popular but there was nothing to outlaw his rifle. If there were he wouldn't have threatened to sue and the NRA wouldn't have backed down.
I don't even want to go in to what happened and why regarding the hunter class because it isn't history enough. It is enough said that a lot of mistakes were made by a lot of different people. Tim Kurrek told me a long time ago that it takes three errors to crash a plane. We made sure of that one planting it's nose in the ground.
I think one of the biggest challenges we face as an organization and community is that we have a hard time saying NO. Sorry. That ain't legal. period. Our committee has been challenged by it, our tech people at nationals are challenged by it, our juries struggle with it. One of the reasons i love David Maclemore is that he is clear and steady as a bell ringing the song of truth. You may not like what he says but i'll bet you understand exactly what he means. We have too many folks that dance around the bush afraid to say "Very nice rifle... not a hunter rifle. Next!"
If we have people that are willing to enforce them, our rules are more than clear enough.
Mr./Ms. Guest... sorry for the rant from my soap box... sore subject for me.
dave imas
My remembrance of history is just a bit different than yours on many of your accountances and, speaking of chin guns,would argue that if the stock fits the jig, it isn't cheating. I don't know if you remember the vote at national championship at Raton in , I think, 1989, where they put their legality to a vote of the over 100 shooters at the competitors dinner/meeting. All but one voted in favor of allowing the chin guns to continue as legal. They were then outlawed by the Sil. committee despite the vote. They were voted out because of a very few shooters that made a very loud stink and one specific committee member that hated them. All that said, they provided no real advantage and were a pain in the butt to shoot. I'm pretty certain that there was no real dip in scores or performance after they were outlawed that would suggest a signifcant advantage was gained by shooting them.
The gentleman that shot the air rifle nationals with the first pcp was, and i'll bet still is, a gigantic pain in the ass. That said, he was right. Period. Certainly wasn't popular but there was nothing to outlaw his rifle. If there were he wouldn't have threatened to sue and the NRA wouldn't have backed down.
I don't even want to go in to what happened and why regarding the hunter class because it isn't history enough. It is enough said that a lot of mistakes were made by a lot of different people. Tim Kurrek told me a long time ago that it takes three errors to crash a plane. We made sure of that one planting it's nose in the ground.
I think one of the biggest challenges we face as an organization and community is that we have a hard time saying NO. Sorry. That ain't legal. period. Our committee has been challenged by it, our tech people at nationals are challenged by it, our juries struggle with it. One of the reasons i love David Maclemore is that he is clear and steady as a bell ringing the song of truth. You may not like what he says but i'll bet you understand exactly what he means. We have too many folks that dance around the bush afraid to say "Very nice rifle... not a hunter rifle. Next!"
If we have people that are willing to enforce them, our rules are more than clear enough.
Mr./Ms. Guest... sorry for the rant from my soap box... sore subject for me.
dave imas
-
mordecai
- Forum Fiddler
- Posts: 977
- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:48 am
- Location: WA
Lemme play Devil's Advocate. How do you sum up a shooter like Zink?
IMHO, a phenominal shooter who has the basics and form down. He puts more rounds down range per month than a lot of us combined. But he doesn't use anything fancy. $50 glass, $1.50 ammo, $250 rifles and $10 rings. He shoots very consistently and very well but I don't think I've seen him shoot a Master score yet.
IMHO, a phenominal shooter who has the basics and form down. He puts more rounds down range per month than a lot of us combined. But he doesn't use anything fancy. $50 glass, $1.50 ammo, $250 rifles and $10 rings. He shoots very consistently and very well but I don't think I've seen him shoot a Master score yet.
-
dave imas
- A Poster
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:41 pm
- Location: olympia, washington
- Contact:
-
MasterBlaster
- Unclassified Poster
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 9:00 pm
-
Jason
- Uber Master Poster
- Posts: 3002
- Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:36 pm
- Location: Snohomish, WA
-
dave imas
- A Poster
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:41 pm
- Location: olympia, washington
- Contact:
so the whole custom rifle thing... they may not actually be more "accurate" than a factory rifle. what they do, however, is provide a higher level of "functional" accuracy. they allow the shooter to perform closer to the "intrinsic" accuracy... or bench accuracy than most factory rifles. they allow the shooter to hold better because of a higher comb or deeper forearm... because of their balance... keep in mind that... well, i'll just speak for myself... i'm well past the point of diminishing return. i'm looking for another 1/2 point per match from my rifle... or should i say i'm hoping my rifle will allow me to perform 1/2 point better per match. oft times however, that 1/2 point is lost not because of how my rifle allows me to perform but because i have my head so far up my ass i can't see the targets! such are the best laid plans...
do you have to lay out cashola to shoot a master score? nope. give me any safe rifle that has some modicum of accuracy and i'll shoot a master score with it. promise. make take me a few matches for us to get to know eachother but we'll get there. that can be said for any of those masters that know and practice their trade.
that said, if your rifle/ammunition combination shoots 2" at 40 meters... well... you might have a real challenge ahead of you.
i'm not suggesting that Shawn's ammunition is that bad. i am suggesting that Shawn is a skilled enough shooter that better ammunition would enhance his scores. Shawn. I apologize for talking about you behind your back!
i had the same experience way back when. i lucked in to a case of eley tenex back in the mid 80's. overnight my average went up by 5 animals. 26 average to a 31 average. nothing changed but the ammunition.
do you have to lay out cashola to shoot a master score? nope. give me any safe rifle that has some modicum of accuracy and i'll shoot a master score with it. promise. make take me a few matches for us to get to know eachother but we'll get there. that can be said for any of those masters that know and practice their trade.
that said, if your rifle/ammunition combination shoots 2" at 40 meters... well... you might have a real challenge ahead of you.
i'm not suggesting that Shawn's ammunition is that bad. i am suggesting that Shawn is a skilled enough shooter that better ammunition would enhance his scores. Shawn. I apologize for talking about you behind your back!
i had the same experience way back when. i lucked in to a case of eley tenex back in the mid 80's. overnight my average went up by 5 animals. 26 average to a 31 average. nothing changed but the ammunition.
-
Jetmugg
- AAA Poster
- Posts: 566
- Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:10 pm
- Location: Festus, MO
What makes a hunter gun?
I'm a raw beginner, but for the sake of argument, what makes a hunter gun "look" like a hunter gun? What are the specific details which would make an otherwise legal hunter rifle cross the boundary into non-legal territory? This is a fuzzy rule which does not allow for uniform enforcement. I agree that it's better than the old rules which required absolute as-delivered from the factory rifles, but how is a match director supposed to decide how hunter-esque a rifle appears.
How about a well defined template that the rifle must fit into? I have heard of this for standard rifles, why not hunters as well?
SteveM.
How about a well defined template that the rifle must fit into? I have heard of this for standard rifles, why not hunters as well?
SteveM.
-
sdwooster
Steve M
The main thing is it must have a tapered barrel. And have a hunter style stock. This is a real gray area. But as long as it doesn't have a thumbhole stock it should be legal. The only thing you need to worry about is if you shoot it as a standard. Then it must conform to some of the standard rules. Can only be 2 1/4'' from centerline of bore to bottom of stock. And the toe can't be below 7 or 7 1/2 " from centerline ( can't remember which it is) of bore. I have seen this one bit some people before. Other than that if it looks like a hunter it must be one. As for the high dollar rifles if you got the money and want something nice getter done!!!!!!!! I guess thats why they build lots of different Motorcycles, Cars, Trucks. If not we would all have a hard time finding them at the end of the match in the parking lot. The new rules seem to be ok. No more pissing matches. In the past a lot of things were said and a lot of people were hurt. I hope we can put this in the garbage can and send it off.
The main thing is to compete and have fun. And if you have a rifle that will only allow you to shoot B scores then shoot it and have fun. If you want to upgrade then upgrade. As Dave said, you can shoot good scores with a stock rifle. The best score I ever shot was with a 541 stock rifle. But I also practiced then. Hopefully some day I will be able to do that again.
Steve
The main thing is it must have a tapered barrel. And have a hunter style stock. This is a real gray area. But as long as it doesn't have a thumbhole stock it should be legal. The only thing you need to worry about is if you shoot it as a standard. Then it must conform to some of the standard rules. Can only be 2 1/4'' from centerline of bore to bottom of stock. And the toe can't be below 7 or 7 1/2 " from centerline ( can't remember which it is) of bore. I have seen this one bit some people before. Other than that if it looks like a hunter it must be one. As for the high dollar rifles if you got the money and want something nice getter done!!!!!!!! I guess thats why they build lots of different Motorcycles, Cars, Trucks. If not we would all have a hard time finding them at the end of the match in the parking lot. The new rules seem to be ok. No more pissing matches. In the past a lot of things were said and a lot of people were hurt. I hope we can put this in the garbage can and send it off.
The main thing is to compete and have fun. And if you have a rifle that will only allow you to shoot B scores then shoot it and have fun. If you want to upgrade then upgrade. As Dave said, you can shoot good scores with a stock rifle. The best score I ever shot was with a 541 stock rifle. But I also practiced then. Hopefully some day I will be able to do that again.
Steve
-
GeoNLR
- Sponsor
- Posts: 645
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:23 am
Like I thought from the name.....MasterBlaster wrote:does that mean i can't get a master score without laying out cashola?
In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who comes into an established community such as an online discussion forum, and posts inflammatory, rude or offensive messages designed to annoy and antagonize the existing members or disrupt the flow of discussion
Hummmmm...
Does this poster 'look' like a troll? I think under the sprit of the rules (defined above), I would have to say yes...LOL
Chicken
Chicken George-
genphideaux
- AAA Poster
- Posts: 781
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:31 am
- Location: Woolmarket, Mississippi
-
duckgumbo
- Master Poster
- Posts: 1118
- Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:00 pm
- Location: Winnsboro, Louisiana - Home of the Southern Nationals, the Greatest Show on Dirt!
- Contact:
Mr. Imas,
Thank you for your kind words. This post has answered a lot of questions and stirred up a lot of good BS and I will add to the mix!
I DO like the new Hunter Rifle changes, but have seen many people get discouraged by seeing all the new equipment on the line and not thinking that they could compete. I do NOT practice but compete to have a great time and meet great people. I have shot ALL types of discipline and the silhouette discipline has the most freindly people that are more willing to help eothers than any other discipline where jealously reigns supreme!
To call it like it was with the chin gun, Margueritte Everheart was the sole individual responsible for the demise of the chin gun! She did not give a s**t about anyone other than herself! I just wanted to get that off of my chest and tell the truth about what happened to the chin gun. Dave is correct in the fact that the 1989 vote had one negative vote against the chin gun - M. Everheart! Nuff said! The individuals that did not like the chin gun never travelled out of their area and shot in Raton or anywhere else where the wind blows!
No matter what equipment you have, PRACTICE does make the difference!
David
Thank you for your kind words. This post has answered a lot of questions and stirred up a lot of good BS and I will add to the mix!
I DO like the new Hunter Rifle changes, but have seen many people get discouraged by seeing all the new equipment on the line and not thinking that they could compete. I do NOT practice but compete to have a great time and meet great people. I have shot ALL types of discipline and the silhouette discipline has the most freindly people that are more willing to help eothers than any other discipline where jealously reigns supreme!
To call it like it was with the chin gun, Margueritte Everheart was the sole individual responsible for the demise of the chin gun! She did not give a s**t about anyone other than herself! I just wanted to get that off of my chest and tell the truth about what happened to the chin gun. Dave is correct in the fact that the 1989 vote had one negative vote against the chin gun - M. Everheart! Nuff said! The individuals that did not like the chin gun never travelled out of their area and shot in Raton or anywhere else where the wind blows!
No matter what equipment you have, PRACTICE does make the difference!
David
Sgt. O'Ducky
Ftard Troop
Ftard Troop