Bolt Hard to Close

[tenx9]

Pretty funny. On the "Accuracy Thread", somewhere else on here, I got chopped up for suggesting using ammo thats adaquate for the size of the targets and not spending crazy money on the best stuff. Now, on here you guys are lubing your own bullets. LOL!! FOR PRACTICE CCI standard is more than adaquate for chickens and pigs. You'll have to use at least Wolf standard for the longer distances. If you want to use Tenx or R50 or whatever high dollar ammo for matches, either your a master and can hold 1moa or mostly you're just fooling yourself. Enjoy boys and girls, thats the most important. The easy answer to the question is.....cheap ammo has thicker and inconsistant rim thickness and match chambers don't match up to them. Therefore, harder bolt close. Never use high velocity ammo in a match rifle.

[BCloninger]

Only some of us, Tenx! Learned a lot in the process, too.

[Evelio Mc Donald]

Tony
I agree with you in the use of Hi vel. ammo. for Cowboy lever gun silhouette, I use Federal 510 for practice, and SK Hi vel. in my lever gun. My previous statement was in reference to bolt guns for Standard Smallbore Silhouette competition, specially those with a match tight chamber.
Evelio.

[metalhead]

You all blow my mind as far as having to add lube to 22LR ammo. I have been shooting 22LR probably longer than all the "experts" in this forum, so far the only one that makes any sence is Lone ringer. Ammo. like auto match is not made to be used in Rifles for competition purposes. If you want to shoot cheap good ammo. you can use SK standard plus, or even CCI std. vel. at the shorter distances. Stay away from the High velocity ammo. it is good for hunting but not for Match purposes.
Funny, one of this " expert" have not shot a match or probably more than 100 rounds in the last 5 years !!!!!!!!!
Sorry, I just get pissed at some of this, out of this world advise by some ________
Evelio.

Evelio, you're the only gunsmith type guy on this discussion board who could openly said something like this, to a guy in Arkansas on this forum, and not be subjected to a whole bunch of unfreindly people telling you how illiterate you are ? You lead a charmed life Evelio...

Now, just for laughs....Imagine the direction this thread would have taken if I was the one who had the nerve to make such a post as Evelio did? The guy he was referring to responded quick enough though.

Just some food for thought.

[dustinflint]

The difference is that Evelio is a respected member of this group who makes an effort to be respectful and helpful and you're an obnoxious pervert who is rude to everyone and doesn't write the English language properly. It's pretty easy to see why he can say what he wants and no one wants to hear your crap.

Dustin

[CZforlife]

And the bait has been taken!

[BCloninger]

It's more fun - and helpful - when everyone plays nice. Honestly, I love rimfires and this is my mental break time, so any conflict I provoke is accidental and definitely not a part of the hobby. People that thrive on conflict go on the ignore list where they're welcome to say anything they like and I'll never know.

[metalhead]

And the bait has been taken!

Yeah Baby, Hook Line & Sinker! Geezus, Dustin, What a Retard!

[dustinflint]

I'm happy with my comment, Perv, er...Marv. Actually, after your comment about the Alabama dancers after the LSU/Bama game, I'm just going to call you Perv from now on instead of Marv...
Perv Pearson! It's perfect for you!

Dustin

[steve b.]

Hello all,

It's not the lube.

It's the location of the driving band just behind the bullet's ojive. As we know, rimfire chambers vary in many dimensions, but the one that toubles many shooters is the actual location of the leade angle. Match chambers tend to be tighter and shorter when it comes to the leade angle, looking to achieve a tight fit. These are designed around match ammo. an example of this my design with Pactific Tool and Gauge called the ECX. It is a hybrid designed to allow the best fit for Eley Tenex and Lapua Midas. This will account for the slight difference in bullet geometry between the two brands while offering superb accuray.

This is an example, look and you can see the different locations of the driving band. The round on the left sit's much further forward, making it hard to close the bolt on a match rifle.



Changing the lube will help lower the friction between the leade angle slope and the lead bullet, but you will still have to compress the lead some to make it fit. This will lead to erratic velocity shifts and vertical dispersion at the target. It's a thing to play with for some shooters, as long as you are no violating any competition rules (some events state that the ammo cannot be modified). At times it will help tighten up groups, but over the long haul it's tough to make consistent.

Further, lower quality ammo tends to have consistency issues when locating this particular area of the bullet, and after some detailed measurements, I found on average a + 5 thou range in this area. Not the best of accuracy.

CCI SV ammo, as well as the Green Tag ( same thing, just different lot test results ), has an ojive and driving band location much more forward than Euro brands like Eley and Lapua.

Why you ask, it's because CCI looks to make target ammo which will fit American sporting rifles in general, which tend to have these larger chambers; i.e. Savage, Marlin, ect. They do not design ammunition for the Euro market, knowing that Eley, RWS, and Lapua already dominate those regions.

As for the case rim thickess, typically it's not this either. If you pull a bullet from a new CCI SV case and a Eley Tenex case, both empty cases will fit just fine in your chamber. It's uncommon for the rim to be thick enough to cause any bolt closing problems. Again, the problem is the location of the bullet, not the thickness of the case.

[steve b.]

Continuing on,

Changing lube is not done for most uses, in that competition shooters just use high quaity ammo suited to their rifles.

Now, I have been working on bullet shapes and dimensions, and this required some re-lubing of bullets due to my efforts in changing their shape. I have relubled about 4,500 Stinger rounds, 12,000 Mini Mag rounds, and about 3,000 Velocitors, and without question, better lube and application techniques will improve accuracy.

Too little lube on bullets will cause a more rapid fouling in the barrel, and in worst case scenario (no lube) they will lead a barrel terribly.

I hope something from these two posts helps clear up any questions on the topic.

s.

[lone ringer]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us Steve. Not too long ago I was testing ammo modified with a Waltz die for some of my friends that can only buy Aguila ammo in Mexico and in the process managed to lead foul several of my .22 rifle barrels because I did not add lubricant to the bullets I modified.

[steve b.]

Thanks.

I also ran head-first into that problem when I first started testing, but after I did some experimenting with lubes and techniques, I was surprised as to the results.

I performed this testing in my one-piece testing rig, with a few different barrels specifically chambered for sporting ammo, and I was able to observe the differences.

Because I was modifying the bullets with a die, the old lube was shaved off, so I never really had to mess with removing old lube from the bullets after sizing, it was just a part of the process. As for relubing regular ammo, I have not yet given it a try with any serious effort.

s.

[Jason]

Thanks for sharing, Steve. The rim of the bullet of the bullet on the left does look quite a bit thicker than the one on the right. Is that not enough to make a difference?

[topclass]

Steve: your photo and description of the issue between different ammos is the most concise and clear explanation I've seen/read. Now I know what to look for when I compoare ammo. For what it's worth, my expereince with 711B is mostly positive, with the exception of it being "dirty" -- lots of schmootz (I think that is the correct technical term) in the barrel, but no leading. I tried it at the longer distances but found it unsatisfactory (large groups with no uniformity), so I stayed with either Wolf MT or SK Standard+. It's good indoor ammo, along with CCI SV. topclass