Redfield 75

[Another Dang 9]

tenx9 where are you shooting? I have been to a few clubs were the rams can be "hard set" and not fall to a factory loaded 170gr round from my 26" barreled 30/30.

[PhxShooter]

tenx9,

Just out of curiosity, if the animals are Sooooo big and easy to hit, why has NO ONE in a registered match EVER scored a 40 in either Smallbore CLA or PCCLA? A few have done it in CLA but even those are very rare. There's a lot of mighty fine shooters that have tried but as I said NONE have succeeded. Just my opinion but if was Sooooo easy those records would not be so illusive.

I'll keep trying.

[tenx9]

didn't I say that, Mr. Dang??? As it stands, you don't need better accuracy or more talent, just more hitting power. Amen to your comment Boats. Its like Falling Plates in Action Pistol. Super easy, but you have to shoot 48 just to get into the shoot offs.

[Cimarron Red]

PhxShooter,

The targets are too small!

[Another Dang 9]

So Mr. tenx9 whats more powerful than a factory 170 gr in a 30/30? And you didn't answer my question of WHERE DO YOU shoot!!!

[Jason]

I don't think one's necessarily harder than the other the way they are set up now. I average around 33 or 34 on both SCLA and PCCLA, which is about what I average for smallbore and smallbore hunter rifle. I don't shoot CLA often enough to have an average that I know well. My top score for both SCLA and PCCLA is 39/40 and my top score for the scoped rifle (I shoot one rifle for both classes) is 38/40. For me, the leverguns have several disadvantages that are offset by the much bigger targets. The biggest is having to use sights instead of a 24x scope. It wouldn't really matter for me if the sights were top-of-the-line Anschutz sights or my Redfield 75 rear and Lyman 17A front sights. I just can't aim as precisely as I can with a scope. It's more of a disadvantage to me than it is my 11-year-old daughter who has phenomenal vision, of course. The next biggest disadvantage is the trigger. I had a Marlin 39A that I did a trigger job on that had a great trigger for a levergun. It didn't compare to my Anschutz triggers, though. After I foolishly sold that 39A to our very own webmaster, Mordecai, I have gone round and round with the Marlin 57s trying to get as good a trigger and have not succeeded. The third biggest disadvantage is rifle fit. My 1712 in a Pharr RTS stock was built to fit me, and it does. I've got a recoil pad on my Marlin 57 because that's the legal way to extend the length of pull on a levergun, and it helps a little. It doesn't make it a Pharr RTS and that's a good thing. The last disadvantage is the lack of muzzle weight compared to that long, heavy Lilja barrel on my Anschutz. Although self-inflicted because of my choosing to shoot a Marlin 57, I don't know of any SCLA-legal gun that would have that muzzle-heavy feel that I love that shows down my wobble. The Marlin 39A that I had was close, but I was shooting splitfinger at the time and didn't hold it very well. Lastly, the Marlin 57 is not as accurate as my Lilja-barreled Anschutz. When scopes for load testing, it shoots about 2" 5-shot groups at 100 meters on good days and 2.5 to 3" groups on windy days where I'm not judging well. My PCCLA rifle, a very similar Marlin 57M in 22 Mag, shoots 1 to 1.5" groups 5-shot groups at 100 meters with the CCI Maxi-mag TMJ or my "tweaked" Federal 50gr loads. In either case, if I could hold and aim as well with the levergun as I can with the Anschutz, neither accuracy level would prevent me from getting a 40/40 most days.

I really like the different rulesets for cowboy leverguns and scoped rifles. I don't think we should allow better than Redfield 75 rear sights because I think one of the draws for the lever matches is that you can get totally set up for the matches for around $500 and you can shoot cheap ammo and still win. My 39/40 was shot with a $300 Marlin 57, Lyman 17A front sight, Williams FP rear sight, and Automatch ammo. The only shot that I missed was missed because I pulled slightly off the breast of the turkey before I broke the trigger. It had nothing to do with the gun.

[boats]

General rule of thumb on iron sights is good apertures will resolve to 1 moa. This with a shooter having normal vision. Scopes improve on 1 moa by there power. 10 x = 1/10 of a MOA resolution. Silhouette you get another factor scope lets you pick a spot on the animal, Small Small bore animal powerful scope lets you pick the spot. Large CLA animal and a small post and bead front you can pick a spot too but it's a much larger critter to work with. And of course scope allows somebody with vision problems to compete.

One of my 39A's has Unertl blocks and sometimes will put a scope on it. Mostly a B5, it improves my sight picture but never hit more CLA swinger targets in practice scoped than with iron. Little improvement in resolution is not important considering the target size. Good training tool though.

Easy matches ? Well I shoot some shotgun at a very low level. Trap is probably the easiest target and matches winners run all the birds then go to shoot offs to determine the winner, and there are distance handicaps. Mental discipline to shoot time and time again never making a mistake is the key. Sporting Clays hit rates are way lower 80 % perhaps. Look at who wins matches shooters that have the discipline not to throw any targets away are the ones that win even on the more difficult presentations. They are not going to hit them all but don't waste a single bird.

Boats

[PaulG]

Excellent summary by boats.

Just an observation about target size: The format of cowboy silhouette evolved from existing silhouette events, with the intent of utilizing existing range facilities and targets. Changing target size and/or distances would lead to fewer venues and opportunities to shoot lever silhouette.

Pa

[lone ringer]

In my opinion SB and HP rifle silhouette with scoped rifles is a much harder sport and if I do not train/practice I have a hard time getting close to 30 and of those two SB is easier for me because of the distances involved and I shoot a lot more SB matches a year.

Cowboy Lever Action rifle silhouette on the other hand for me is a lot of fun and not as stressful, for instance after not having shot anything for 4 months I attended the AZ State Cowboy Lever Action Championships and posted scores of 36/38 in SB, 38/34 in PC with my Marlin 39A and 33/32 in Rifle Caliber. I saved the worst for last more than likely because the noise or recoil of my 30-30. The turkeys gave me the most trouble and only got 6 in the first match and 5 in the second match but at the very end on a shoot off for High Senior I got even with them and hit 9 turkeys out of 10 to win the shoot off.

My take on Cowboy is that the targets are not HARD to hit but they are EASY to miss and if I am not concentrating on every shot, if my rifles are not sighted in correctly for every distance, if I can't see the targets because of poor light conditions or lack of contrast between the targets and the back stop I can miss a lot of targets very fast.

[tenx9]

Whew!! Sorry I opened my mouth. Ok, your all right. Like most contests or sports, 90% of the winning gets done by 10% of the competitors. Just because no one ever shot a 40 it doesn't mean it isn't hard to reach AAA or Master. Winning is in fact as much mental as talent. Totally different animal. I've won with both bad and good scores. Its about the day, the conditions, the weather and what side of the bed we wake up on. I'm sure you still won't agree but I would bet a beer or a drink on the fact that shooters reach AAA or Master faster in Cowboy than any other silo contest. So, I apologize I pissed everyone off (kinda fun, though). Have fun, thats the most important, Nike isn't giving any Tiger Woods sponsorships here, LOL. P.S. Mr Dang, use a 45-70 Sheeeeesh!!

[lone ringer]

Excellent summary by boats.

Just an observation about target size: The format of cowboy silhouette evolved from existing silhouette events, with the intent of utilizing existing range facilities and targets. Changing target size and/or distances would lead to fewer venues and opportunities to shoot lever silhouette.

Pa

I agree with Paul, very few places built Cowboy Lever Action Rifle Silhouette ranges from scratch, most of them are Handgun Silhouette Ranges where they also host Cowboy rifle silhouette matches. In CA there is only one range that was built for Cowboy rifle silhouette only. Targets are very expensive and nobody is going to change them to make the sport more challenging. Handgun Silhouette Shooters have a 1/2 size sport for Center fire pistols from 50 to 200 meters that I sometimes shoot with my scoped silhouette rifles with lead cast bullets or jacketed bullets but with reduced powder loads.
To challenge myself a lot of times I shoot the sb1/5 size targets with my 39A with iron sights, not hard to do if the rifle is very well sighted in.
I have also shot HP chickens with my 30-30 with iron sights at 200 meters with success.

[Tlee]

...(snip) I'm sure you still won't agree but I would bet a beer or a drink on the fact that shooters reach AAA or Master faster in Cowboy than any other silo contest. (snip)....

I'd take that bet in a heartbeat....

Shooters in Hunter Pistol Silhouette, particularly the Metallic sight categories, historically reach AAA far quicker than any other silhouette discipline. I personally know of a half dozen or more who are still AA in the Cowboy Silhouette categories (and are honest/regular AA shooters, not sandbaggers), who've shot AAA Hunter Pistol metallic sights scores on their 1st, 2nd, or 3rd attempts.

I've also heard a couple very well known Cowboy Silhouette National champions state (only half jokingly) that they wish they could shoot their Hunter Pistol OS guns in the Lever gun matches... They contend their scores would consistently be higher if that were allowed.

my .02,

-Tim

[Tlee]

General rule of thumb on iron sights is good apertures will resolve to 1 moa. This with a shooter having normal vision. (snip)....

Boats

I agree... My vision hasn't been classified as normal for over 35 years and I have shot 1-1/4" groups with my pistol cartridge and CLA rifle on a bullseye at 100m on numerous occasions using nothing more than a Williams FP and a Lymans 17AUG (from a sandbag of course). Those are guns and loads that have shot 1/2 to 3/4" 100meter groups using a scope. Most of my rimfire rifles shoot 2" to 2-1/2" 100m groups regardless of sights used. So I definitely think the sights are not limiting us in this game.

I know with me, the majority of my misses are due to poor shot decisions combined with the infamous wobble factor. I blame 30 years of shooting trap before shooting silhouette. At least a couple times during any silhouette match I'll be amazed at the decision to break a shot that I know full well has little chance of hitting the target. At least with a shotgun and a loose choke you have a chance of hitting something that you're not well lined up on, LOL!

-Tim

[cslcAl]

tenx9, One thing you may not know is that four or five years ago the committe lowered the break points for all the cowboy classifications. It used to take three 37's to become a master. There weren't many masters back then, now there are a lot. It may have been a mistake to do that as that was the one factor that made cowboy more difficult as far as moving up in class. Al Foust

[boats]

2nd on the clubs using existing targets and ranges. Without it our club would never have started CLA Rimfire and Pistol. Special Cowboy target would be a serious obstacle.

Our club silhouette was just about dying, 4 years ago. Our Hunter Pistol MD picked up Cowboy Small bore and Lever same range same targets and it re-vitalized the whole program. Our Conventional HP program has a very low turn out and we are looking hard at ways to expand the range to allow us to shoot Conventional HP mornings and CLA Rifle afternoons.

2 Club swinger matches on the Cowboy Rams Center fire and Rimfire has been a good entry level match too. Not as hard as switching animals lots of new shooters try it and switch over regulation silhouette either Cowboy Rim or Center Fire. Good Cowboy shooters use it to hone there Ram count too.

This Sat I have 19 pre registered for Conventional Small bore Silhouette with a max capacity of 20. Afternoon on the CLA rimfire rams hung from swingers have 23 pre reg also 1 from capacity. look at the names lot of crossover shooters that would not have tried one discipline without the other.

Give them something to shoot thats fun and does not have a high price barrier to entry they will turn out. Cowboy fits the bill.

Boats