Barrel break in

[Bob Mc Alice]

Trent, I hit the 25K mark last April at the AZ state HP. Yesterdays match put me over 29K of 7-08 rounds fired.

Dave and I split the cost of the Hawkeye borescope. We wanted it to monitor barrel wear and be sure our cleaning regimen was keeping copper fouling to a minimum. You really can not see copper build up with out it until it gets bad. I have two Douglas SS match barrels with about 3800 rds. fired each. They just recently developed a tendency to copper foul on top of the lands only for an inch or so in from the leade. The Hawkeye showed me my normal cleaning method was not removing much copper. It will build up to the point of being able to see it as a rough looking surface and felt with a tight patch. The ammonia based solvents only do so much for removal. I started using J-B bore paste to get most of the fouling out. I use it as directed every few cleanings to keep build up from happening. At 3800 shots the steel in the throat is getting some abrasion and is starting to pick up copper every shot, there is no stopping it. But you can prevent excessive build up. The rifles still shoot almost as good as new. I never did a break in on these two barrels or the other Douglas barrels I have, just routine load testing, get zeroes and shoot them.

Hey, another topic for debate. J-B bore paste, do you use it or not at all ?

[Jim T.]

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/proc ... elbreakin/

http://www.rifle-accuracy-reports.com/b ... ak-in.html

[Bob Mc Alice]

WTF... if I have done the math correctly that Savage method is 50 shots and hours of cleaning. And enough cleaning supplies used to make Larry Potterfield smile. What a crock of shit.

[Trent]

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/proc ... elbreakin/

So Savage just copied what someone else said to do, which is the link below. Great... "you should do this, cause it's what other people do."

http://www.rifle-accuracy-reports.com/b ... ak-in.html

This is a great descriptive article on how to clean your rifle properly. The only mention of break in procedure is below, and it doesn't even go into a TESTED reason as to why to do this. I have a S.G. & Y. barrel (author of the break in procedure below) and I have looked at it with a borescope. I wonder if it was properly broken in... I'll never know because you CAN'T tell.

1. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 1 shot.

2. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 5 shots.

3. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 10 shots.

4. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 10 to 15 shots and clean again.

[Trent]

I should clarify, I have a barrel that was gunsmithed by S.G.&Y. rifles. The maker is Hart.

[Snake]

Having used a borescope for a while ...a number of us have noticed a phenomenon where the copper fouling becomes very dark in color presumably from some chemical action (solvents?)....JB not ISSO removed it ( I think ISSO darkened it) and brought the copper color back to the surface in the meantime. At some point in a number (3 or 4) of barrels JB Brite brought the bores to a mirror finish and that did nothing good for accuracy....apparently mirror finishes aren't great either. It seems,strictly anecdotal, that so long as the last few inches of a barrel are in good shape the barrel continues to shoot...thus the 25 k barrels...a barrel with a loose muzzle end and an eroded throat won't shoot even if a shaman blesses it. Fire cracking or throat erosion are simply parts of a problem...and appear to to be less detrimental in barrels with good muzzle ends. A finely lapped barrel combined with a decent break in (get the copper out) generally produces a good barrel. Add a bad chambering job and a poor crown...then

[Jim T.]

The purpose of my last post above was to point out 2 accepted procedures that appear to be at the extreme ends of the spectrum.

I suspect Salvage had enough confidence and respect for the Precision Shooting article to see fit to post it on Salvage's website.

I had Speedy (SG&Y is technically not in business any longer, Speedy works out of his home shop in Trinidad, CO) do some work on my .280 and .340 (great work!!!!) this summer, and after conversing with him, in person, on several occasions I respect his opinions!!!

My most recent barrel break-in (I have 3 barrels waiting) was on my M-40 clone which wears a 27 inch Krieger, #6 heavy bull sporter contour, chambered in 7mm-08AI. Both Krieger and Greg Tannel, who built the rifle, encouraged me to properly break-in the barrel.

I took notes of the procedure and they are as follows:

1) Cleaned after every shot for 6 shots;

2) Cleaned after 3 shots for 3 cycles (9 rounds);

3) Shot 5 rounds and cleaned. Total of 20 shots.

My notes also indicate that after the first 9 rounds (i.e. after the first 3 shot group) one 15 minute treatment with Sweets removed all of the copper present which was not very much. After 400 rounds this barrel remains a breeze to clean!!!!

This rifle cost a considerable amount to put together and I just could not justify ignoring the advice of 2 people I have great respect for (Krieger and Tannel) and not perform some iteration of an acceptable break-in procedure.

In my mind it all boils down to this, What is the downside of a 20 shot break-in procedure as outlined above???

Put another way, when in doubt about something, I will always error on the side of expert advice every time!!! After all, I have Krieger, Bartlein, Lilja, Gonzalez, etc., etc., and even Salvage Arms on my side!!!

[Trent]

What is the downside of a 20 shot break-in procedure as outlined above???

Ever read Pascal's Wager? It's right up your alley.

The real question isn't "What's the harm?". It is "Why do we do it?"

It seems that so many people follow the "break in" procedure because someone else told them to.

Some of the reasons given are:
1) It'll clean easier
2) It'll last longer
3) It'll be more accurate

I call BS on all these until someone offers up PROOF, not conjecture. It is practically impossible to prove the effectiveness or worthlessness of breaking in a barrel so we'll probably never know the truth. Sometime in the past someone decided they needed to do this, then someone else agreed with them, and so on and so forth until now where everyone just does it because "so and so says I should".

I'll believe it when someone takes 60 barrels from the same maker and does the following (30 is an acceptable number for general statistics):
-> "Break in" 30 barrels and test them for the three items listed above
-> "Shoot in" 30 barrels and test them for the three items listed above
(also a longevity test of 4000 to 5000 shots fired or until a level of acceptable accuracy is lost on each barrel)
So we are looking at 240,000 to 300,000 shots fired in order to actually PROVE the effectiveness. This is why I feel that we will never know the truth to this method that was rumored to have been started by Nev Maden long ago and just continues to be accepted by many.

[Bob259]

Trent... admit it you miss McAlice being close by don't you.....

[Jim T.]

Absolutlee, after reading all of this BS what have you decided?

[Bob Mc Alice]

This is the best my camera will do looking through the Hawkeye bore scope. The view is crisp and clean to the naked eye. Picture is 1.5 inches from the leade showing a short section of copper fouling in heat caused shallow erosion cracks. It is one of the Douglas SS with 3800 shots after JB paste treatment. That stuff ain't coming out with chemicals. No problem.











But guys....it is not the break in...or the copper fouling we need to worry about. No sir, it's the HEAT, we gotta stop the heat , flame ..what ever from ruining our precious barrels!!!








Where did all that steel go? Kind of makes any break in procedure seem worthless.
Picture #1 actually has 1200 less rounds fired than picture #2 but still shot well enough for silhouette. I retired them both at the same time when I installed the SS Douglas barrels.






My high tech close in zoom photo set up. These were a pair of factory carbon 7-08 barrels with about 9800 rds. between them.

[Trent]

That does it. In order to preserve my barrels I will no longer be shooting them. Clearly, shooting them is the worst thing you could possible do to the barrel!

[Snake]

Most barrels don't go 25k before they start keyholing or groups open to 10" or more. bob, did you scope the muzzle end?

[Bob Mc Alice]

Snake, the 25k-29k we are referring to is how many rounds of 7-08 I have fired from several different rifles to date since aquiring my first one in 1990. The most rounds I have gotton from any barrel to date was the Remington carbon barrel with 5475 shots on it. It was the one that let me down at your 2004 match. That burned out thing was still a 2 MOA shooter at the beginning of the first match, but went down fast after 20 some shots more. I had to abandon it and finish up the match with the hunter rifle. I knew I was pushing my luck with it but did not have time or $$ to replace it before your match. After Sat. was over, I fired a three shot NINE INCH group at 200 yds. with it. Toast.

My final comment regarding "barrel break in"....dont waste your time on a silhouette rifle expected to fire many thousands of rounds.

[lone ringer]

That does it. In order to preserve my barrels I will no longer be shooting them. Clearly, shooting them is the worst thing you could possible do to the barrel!

You could always borrow one of Bob's rifles, he has about 10 or more that you could chose from. The only problem is that you would have to convert to 7mm.