Comb height questions

[375Short]

That’s a good question. I assume every change to the rules has a story and reason.

I’m only speculating but it would seem the modern Olympic 3 position rifle may be optimal OR is it only optimal as design allows to stay within that sports rules. No matter how a stock is designed as long as Silhouette is shot offhand, outdoors at relatively small targets that are far away EASY won’t enter into the picture.

How hard is High power Silhouette? Lay the most appropriate sized for distance HP rifle bullseye over a Silhouette. They mostly shoot from positions with slings. Our sport is hard.

Like others - leave all rules the same or change some to be nimble through time, I’m in. It’s a fun challenging sport full of good folks and friends.

[TangoBob]

Both Ridgeway & Raton are a lot of fun. First time I went it felt like being at shooters' camp. Go early, get sighted in and comfortable. Lots of nice folks.

[Jetmugg]

My 2 cents: The reason for the current comb height regulations date back to the "Chin Gun" era, when the rules were much more lenient in terms of rifle and stock design. I won't get the timeline exactly right, but the Chin Guns were effectively outlawed by the rules in the late 1980's or into the 1990's (again, I'm working from memory and mine's not particularly good)

I have absolutely no idea if the Chin Gun would offer a performance advantage at the highest levels of the sport in 2025 as compared to the current predominance of dedicated silhouette stocks that fit within the jig and the current state of action, barrel, and ammo quality.

Anyway - that's my 2 cents, and it's worth exactly what you paid for it.

Steve

[No1_49er]

"dedicated silhouette stocks that fit within the jig and the current state of action, barrel, and ammo quality."

Steve

Are you sure?
Allowable dimensions are given in Section 3 of the Rule Book, but there is NO mention or reference to a "jig".
There may have been such a device, in the past, but unless the Rule Book states specific dimensions for such a device, it doesn't exist.

JMO.

49er

[Jetmugg]

This topic has been discussed plenty of times previously.

Disclaimer = I have never shot at the official NRA Metallic Silhouette Nationals

It is my understanding that despite the fact that a jig is not mentioned in the rulebook, there is a jig used at the nationals to check rifles for compliance with the dimensional requirements.

You will not get any argument out of me about the validity of any such jig. That being said - the NRA seems to be OK with this seeming omission / contradiction in the rules concerning rifle dimensions versus the presence of a jig. Feel free to argue with the NRA competition committee as you see fit.

Steve.

[375Short]

It’s hard to argue with the NRA. You find more contact information on the CIA website than the NRA. One must peel back several layers of NRA WEB site to just get to the generic department email addresses. How about a list of employee names, their phone numbers, and a title descriptive of what operation or customer they serve? They exist to take in money any service beyond that is an accidental byproduct. The “Rule Committee” another cloaked NRA operation. Shouldn’t someplace on the NRA web site explain the committee, how it’s structured, where its members come from, how to submit a change, make a suggestion or get clarification? No doubt the NRA has some hard working individuals but as a service organization that is the governing body of our sport they fail by every measure. Why does it matter? I believe they are the single most destructive force behind our shrinking numbers. This is my opinion based on my own experience and observation.

There is hope, growth and improvement within our sport because of hard work and dedication of competitors stepping up and being outstanding ambassadors and leaders. There leadership and hard work is producing great National and local matches. Match directors across the US are bending over backwards to grow the number of shooters at monthly matches. We are sustaining and growing ourselves in the void of leadership from the NRA. Maybe in the end we will be stronger for it.

[lone ringer]

A little bit of history for those of you that have not been shooting as long as I have and question how the current measurements on Standard rifles came to be.
I started shooting HP rifle silhouette in 1978 and the first NRA HP rifle silhouette nationals I attended were in Phoenix, AZ in the same year. The first year they came up with most of the measurements we still use and to check the rifles somebody put together a wooden jig made of plywood. Latter they replaced it with the ones they use now.
Why did they went to the trouble of doing all that you may ask.
Well on the previous year also in Phoenix AZ. There was a young lady named Karen Monez that belonged to the Army Marksmanship unit and she had a Remington 700 in 308 with a custom stock whose measurements were more like the ones on a target air rifle.
I have a picture of her from an NRA Rifleman magazine and if I am able I will post here later. The thing is that her rifle was inspected and tried to comply two or three times and the end result was that she was allowed to shoot the match with that rifle outside of the competition.
Karen would have won the Nationals that year by one point had she been able to compete. A lot of controversy between the people that supported Karen and those that wanted the sport to remain "pure" with rifles resembling "hunting" rifles.
Find the articles from the NRA magazines 1973-1978 I uploaded in Facebook a few years back and you will find the results with pictures of the 1977 nationals. Again if I am able I will post here but restrictions to size files have prevented me from posting pictures in the near past here.
Tony Tello

[lone ringer]

A little bit of history for those of you that have not been shooting as long as I have and question how the current measurements on Standard rifles came to be.
I started shooting HP rifle silhouette in 1978 and the first NRA HP rifle silhouette nationals I attended were in Phoenix, AZ in the same year. The first year they came up with most of the measurements we still use and to check the rifles somebody put together a wooden jig made of plywood. Latter they replaced it with the plexiglass ones they use now.
Why did they went to the trouble of doing all that you may ask.
Well on the previous year also in Phoenix AZ. There was a young lady named Karen Monez that belonged to the Army Marksmanship unit and she had a Remington 700 in 308 with a custom stock whose measurements were more like the ones on a target air rifle.
I have a picture of her from an NRA Rifleman magazine and if I am able I will post here later. The thing is that her rifle was inspected and tried to comply two or three times and the end result was that she was allowed to shoot the match with that rifle outside of the competition.
Karen would have won the Nationals that year by one point had she been able to compete. A lot of controversy between the people that supported Karen and those that wanted the sport to remain "pure" with rifles resembling "hunting" rifles.
Find the articles from the NRA magazines 1973-1978 I uploaded in Facebook a few years back and you will find the results with pictures of the 1977 nationals. Again if I am able I will post here but restrictions to size files have prevented me from posting pictures in the near past here.
Tony Tello

[375Short]

For anyone that is new to the sport and or just doesn’t know Tony, seek him out if you have the opportunity. Tony is a wealth of historical and practical silhouette knowledge. It’s hard to talk with Tony long without learning something. Thanks for the solid background history on the Jig.

[lone ringer]

Thank you very much for the kind words Wayne!

[lone ringer]

This topic has been discussed plenty of times previously.

Disclaimer = I have never shot at the official NRA Metallic Silhouette Nationals

It is my understanding that despite the fact that a jig is not mentioned in the rulebook, there is a jig used at the nationals to check rifles for compliance with the dimensional requirements.

You will not get any argument out of me about the validity of any such jig. That being said - the NRA seems to be OK with this seeming omission / contradiction in the rules concerning rifle dimensions versus the presence of a jig. Feel free to argue with the NRA competition committee as you see fit.

Steve.

Steve, the rules book doesn't mention the jig nor does it mention the 2# weight they use to measure the trigger weight on the hunting rifles. Although we all know that a 2# trigger will not pick up a 2# weight without going off, so we are forever adjusting triggers for more than the allowed weight so the rifle can pick up the 2# weigh.
If they used instead a trigger measure device, either mechanical or electronic they could see if the triggers are legal for hunting class competition.

[Jetmugg]

I realize this thread was started to focus on an individual question about Comb Height for metallic silhouette shooting.

The more broad topic of the history of Silhouette shooting and how we got to the current rules is fascinating. I was too young to participate in any competitions at the time, but used to read as much as I could about silhouette shooting in American Rifleman magazines that I would read at my grandfather's house starting in the late 1970's. American Rifleman used to have good coverage of this sport, there was a lot of equipment reviewed in the magazine, interviews with top shooters, etc. I used to have a deep craving for an Anschutz 64MS based on a review done in the American Rifleman. I haven't owned one of those rifles in my life, but am still a relatively active silhouette shooter in multiple classes. Silhouette was "big" back then into the mid-80's for sure. There was a lot of innovation in equipment particularly. Some of those experiments led to changes in the rule book.

It would be very cool, but only for a niche market, for someone to archive all the available Metallic Silhouette shooting information into a compiled history of the sport. Now that I'm moving into my grumpy old man phase - Ideally, the NRA would have continued to support and encourage the sport as well as many other forms of shooting competition. Sadly, they changed course decades ago. Now, I've just been informed that the NRA will only publish a paper magazine quarterly, and everything else will be online only.

Happy New Year,

Steve.

[thauglor]

Tony,

Here is the picture of Karen, looks very similar to today's stocks except for the deeper belly

Screenshot_20251231_160302_Drive.jpg

[No1_49er]

Steve, the rules book doesn't mention the jig nor does it mention the 2# weight they use to measure the trigger weight on the hunting rifles. Although we all know that a 2# trigger will not pick up a 2# weight without going off, so we are forever adjusting triggers for more than the allowed weight so the rifle can pick up the 2# weigh.
If they used instead a trigger measure device, either mechanical or electronic they could see if the triggers are legal for hunting class competition.

To my mind, if the "so-called" measuring jig is not defined, dimensionally, so that one might construct such a device, then it doesn't exist.
Allowable dimensions are clearly stated in the rule book at 3.1 and 3.1.1 for High Power, and subsequent sections for Smallbore and others.

The 2 pound trigger weight most certainly is mentioned, and if a trigger releases before the full weight is applied then it is NOT a 2 pound trigger.
What a nonsense to say that "we all know that a 2# trigger will not pick up a 2# weight without going off".

It's interesting to note that the athletes who participate in the ISSF disciplines (including me) do not have any problem with their trigger pull-weight method of measurement.
The rule book for the ISSF disciplines is, perhaps, somewhat more descriptive of the method of testing whereby the barrel must be aligned vertically and the trigger must lift the weight. The whole of the test weight, including the hook that will be lifted by the trigger, is calibrated to the prescribed total mass. Three attempts are permitted. For a quick run-down on the method, go to 8.4.2 of the ISSF Pistol Rules.
It really doesn't need to be thought of as being difficult - it is not.

[cedestech]

.

The 2 pound trigger weight most certainly is mentioned, and if a trigger releases before the full weight is applied then it is NOT a 2 pound trigger.

Unless 2# means something I don’t understand, you are correct. I have an electronic trigger scale and a 2# trigger weight in my gun room. The scale will get you a different reading every pull and depending on where you pull the trigger from on the shoe. The weight is the same but still depending on where you place the hook, it may or may not break the sear. It does though weigh like .001# over 2# even total, hook and all. If you can pull the weight off the bench and it dangles from the trigger shoe with out breaking the sear, it’s a 2 pound trigger… if it will not hold the weight reliably, it is not.