Rapid fire for hunter?

[Mike Sporer]

Hello,

Just for discussion...

There has been much debate/discussion in recent years regarding the narrowing gap between standard rifle and hunter rifle silhouette. The rules and scores are so similar between the two classes, the concept of "shooting two rifles" has become "shooting one rifle twice". Yet efforts to broaden the differences between the classes by restricting equipment are met with much animosity since people have significant money invested in their equipment and introducing new equipment restrictions may make expensive investments obsolete. I believe it is still possible to create a significant difference between standard rifle and hunter rifle without addressing specific equipment issues. This could be accomplished by changing the time limits in hunter class to make it a rapid fire event by implementing a time limit of 30 seconds for each bank of 5 targets (i.e. 6 seconds per shot).

Making hunter rifle a rapid fire event will create a significant fundamental difference between the classes without introducing any new restrictions to current equipment. Having different time limits for the classes will pose no difficulty for registered matches since both classes are fired separately in these matches. For approved matches, it may prove cumbersome to call a cease fire for hunter rifle after 30 seconds with standard rifle continuing for another 2 minutes. Thus, timing for approved matches would be based on the honor system with each hunter rifle shooter responsible for adhering to the specified 30 second time limit. Initially it may seem that an honor system would lead to cheating with shooters taking more time for their shots than they are allowed. This would actually be a disadvantage since it would lead to artificially inflated scores and a higher classification. Then when these shooters were forced into compliance at a registered match their scores would be lower and they would not be competitive in their class.

Any thoughts?

Sincerely,

Mike Sporer

[ppkny]

Mike, Okay for discussion.....I always considered silhouette to be more about accuracy and the finesse of the shot rather than how fast you can knock them down. There's plenty events available for people to shoot fast and there's no need to introduce this in silhouette.

The real way to separate the classes is to revert back to the 70’s and 80’s when the ‘Std’ rifle was allowed to be just about anything with a safe trigger but only restricted by weight. Offset scopes, chin guns, tuners etc. all made the ‘Std’ gun in a class of its own.

I’ve been saying for awhile now that the sport will morph into one class if the current custom stocks and barrels are continued to be allowed in ‘Hunter’.

The polls I’ve taken at the last few Nationals show that about 35% are shooting one gun and my opinion is that the ones that aren’t are only shooting the heavy gun because they have one. The scores prove this out that two guns are not better than one.

The current system will probably prevail until there are very few heavy guns on the line and the NRA decides it’s time to do something about it like they did with the chin guns.
ppkny

[Mike Sporer]

Pete,

One day we're going to see you on CNN with their election day coverage as a pollster...

-Mike Sporer

[BlauBear]

Definitely not something I would support as a change to an existing class. Our club has debated trying open sight and out-of-the box (any rifle as it comes from the manufacturer) as fun events, but no experiments so far. One class that had potential was the Claim Class - set an upward price limit on the rifle & scope combination, and allow any other competitor to purchase that rifle for the claim price. We've held off because we saw potential for hard feelings and didn't want that, but the idea has merit.

Rifles used in both classes carry a lot of compromises, so there are still lots of differences between the classes. Dual class rifles push Hunter class rules and skip advantages of Standard class: Standard class rifles can have lighter triggers and weigh more, both advantages for some shooters that can't be used in dual class rifles. Plus, it costs less to have one rifle, travel is easier and it's really hard to shoot two rifles well - muscle memory is pretty stubborn about switching over. It's a difficult enough problem that I would probably still shoot the same rifle in both groups, or simply shoot one group only.

[malinois]

No No No....we need to leave the rules alone....other wise we will kill off the sport with the constant rule changing. I am glad that the hunter rifle rules were relaxed a bit now I only need one rifle to enjoy the sport the way things were before I needed 3 it got really expensive to remain competative and travel was a nightmare 6 guns at a match per shooter if you shot both bigbore and small I know you old timmers remenber ! do you really want that kind of mayham again...I dont. If they make it rapid fire then the folks with 40x and others will have to get 10-22 rugers to compete..I didnt like them either with all the brass flying around. sorry but I just get ticked that I have had to trash scores of rifle because of rule changes every year just to keep up with those that have the deep pockets and dont care.

[Bob259]

One concern I can think of right away is would be the single shot rifles now used in Hunter class (like the ULA PPKNY uses, hope you’re not picking on him) By the way the Ultra Light Arms (ULA) rifle was not legal just a few years ago itself, for no good reason other than not readily offered and under 500 in production. Back to the single shots, in a lot of cases these single shot rifles are youth rifles and getting youth into the sport relies on a light rifle and learning the basics. Speed of shooting is not a way to encourage or teach young shooters the basics. We seem to keep forgetting, it's not the rifle, stock or barrel that makes someone a world class shooter... it's PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE along with ones physical condition, age, eyes and a multiple of other factors. When Cathy Winstead-Severin shoots a stock Anschutz Hunter rifle and beats all these so called ‘custom’ rifles, I guess the thought that a ’custom’ rifle has an unfair advantage is not true, or someone needs to tell Cathy she’s at a disadvantage and shouldn’t be winning. I would rather see the rules open up on the heavy rifle to anything goes with a safe trigger.

Seeing a very high percentage of today’s shooters now have 'custom' rifles if the rules change today there will no doubt be a loss of shooters, which our sport does not need.

Just my 2 cents....

[Bob259]

One other thought... if we go to speed then all we will see is custom race guns. If someone wants speed there are a number of other competitions available to them for that, lets keep our sport as it is today.

In any type of competition there will be those that are looking for ways to improve 'within the rules', we have a good sport and good turn outs now so let’s not screw it up or we'll be like pistol silhouette shooters with no one showing up and dying a slow death.

[Chattcatdaddy]

I`m with everyone that thinks the standard class should be opened up to "run what you brung" rule. That would open up a lot of possibilities for some really nice rifles that are currently not allowed i.e. biathlon rifles and 3p target rifles.

[Jason]

There are indeed lots of people who shoot one gun for both classes. There are also lots of people who shoot different guns for both classes. I'm not sure why having a choice of doing whichever you prefer is bad. I think we're searching for a solution to a problem that isn't actually a problem at all. Any rule change other than maybe bumping up the max weight for a standard rifle a pound or two is going to cause major trouble. I think the rules are working just fine as they are.

I've shot matches from rapid fire pistol to benchrest. The only events that I still shoot are silhouette, with an occasionall summer prone match, for a reason. Not surprisingly, my vote is no.

[shakes]

no rapid fire, no rules change. I believe the people who shoot two guns and can afford to shoot two guns do so because they see it as a personal challange to master both of the guns. I shoot two guns in both smallbore and highpower and have allready reached master(smallbore) in two years of shooting. Bob259 is right its not the gun or guns its the shooter and if someguys cant handle shooting two different guns then only shoot one, but dont try and change the rules to make it fair just so you can compete with the guys who chose to shoot two guns because they have two classes. Ive been forced to shoot my hunter gun in both classes since last september and I hate it. You get too used to one gun and it takes the fun and the challenge away for me personally. I dont look down or think that anybody is less of a shooter because they only shoot one gun its just there choice. I personally think these posts about using only one gun are posted by people who want the people with two guns to be brought down closer to there own ability so they think they have a better chance of competing. This whole game is mental and if you dont think you can shoot two guns effecitvly dont take it away from the people who can.

[cslcAl]

Mike, You aren't serious are you? 30 sec. per bank of five would save me a loy of ammo, as I would be only shooting 8 to 10 rounds per match. I pay to shoot 2 1/2 mins. and I want to use all of it. If you know what " tres banditos " is and have ever shot it you would know how rediculous it would be to shoot a match with a 30 second rule. Al

[Pete A.]

Nope no high speed.

There is/was a game for high speed offhand 22 rifles shooting, Sportsman Challenge, sounds like a fun game but it is different. Let it stand on it's own, let Smallbore Silhouette Hunter class stand on it's own.

I do think the opening up a bit of Standard Class could stand some review. However could get along just fine with no change in the rules.

Pete A.

[Mike Sporer]

Hello,

I don't have a world of past expereince to draw on. That's why I like to throw stuff out for discussion to see what folks who have "been there, done that" have to say. Except for Pete K. who gives me his opinion whether I want it or not...just kidding Pete

Sincerely,

Mike Sporer

[BlauBear]

Like many of us, my first Silhouette rifle was a 10/99 with a Green Mountain barrel and trigger job, so I'm not knocking rapid fire! It's a lot of fun, but I don't see it as a permanent fixture.

[malinois]

For me shooting 1 rifle per class is a convenience ..a choice it is not for lack of ability lets not go there...There are many shooters who travel and lugging all that stuff on a plane is a real chore....not to mention keeping track of it on the line. for some it is purely economical and you know what god bless them for getting out with what they got and shooting. When I get out there my biggest apponent is myself I am not worring about dragging anyone down..I am trying to better myself and while I am at it enjoying the sport and friends that I see there new and old in almost 30 years of shooting the game leave the rules alone and lets not pick on those that chose to shoot 1 rifle...my 50 cents