Ammo Questions

[JDBraddy]

Mary wrote in another thread.........

JD and Rom...glad to see some Smith 41 shooters around, they are great guns. JD, you may want to try a bunch of ammo in the Kimber 82, they are notorious for being VERY ammo (even down to lot number) specific. Also, actually have two locals here that had to secure the forend to the barrel (not let it free float) to tighten the group up. Yes, a 10/22 customized has won the nationals....but for the amount spent in customizing (and the shooter is good with anything), you can spend less on a CZ or even Annie 64 and get the same accuracy. And BTW Lawton has not shot that 10/22 in a match since he won the nationals with it. Great squirrel rifle.

Mary

I've tried several ammo's, the Kimber will consistantly do about 1/2moa at 40-60yds but past that groups start opening up fast! Winchester T-22 and Federal Champion, we're talking five to six inch groups at 100yds, SK and CCI-SV will do a little better at 3-4 inches, Eley Club Extra is the best I've tried so farr, it'll do around 2 inches at 100yds. I haven't tried the higher end Eley stuff yet. Sometimes I can see the round rise and fall in my scope, and have noticed it's pretty stable untill it passes the peak in it's trajectory, but after it starts back down, and I guess starts slowing down, it starts to wobble like a corkscrew. Is this normal or is their another problem, such as twist in my rifling is perhapse not fast enough?

[Dee]

Have you checked the crown on the barrel? Those aren't groups those are patterns you are shooting right now. With the cost of ammo going up, up, up I would suggest buying another rifle that shoots cheap ammo good and forget trying to go up in ammo price hoping it cures the accuracy issues of the rifle itself. I wouldn't think Kimber would use some oddball twist rate so that shouldn't be an issue.

A great rifle that shoots cheap ammo very well trumps great ammo alone. When you think about the cost of a rifle then think about how much you plan to shoot it the ammo costs can easily exceed the rifles cost in no time even with the cheaper??? $450-500 a case ammo and the more expensive 1712's.

The bullet is slowing down the moment it leaves the muzzle if not before. What you are seeing in your scope probably appears to be a cork screwing bullet but that is just an optical illusion in all likelyhood. Do you notice any key holing on the paper? If no keyholes only nice round ones you are probably not having any flight issues with the bullet.

I would check the crown first with a q-tip and see if it has burrs maybe.


Dee

[edgehit]

You can see the bullet wobbling in flight? You've got some great vision!
If it's shooting 1/2" at 50 yds then opening up at 100, then there's 3 possibilities.
1 you're shooting HV ammo in the wind. The stuff goes whacko past 60m when there's wind.
2. You're shooting in the wind
3. You need to improve your bench shooting technique. Read up on this as there's too much to say to put in a post.

Stick with SK, Wolf, Eley and forget great 100m groups with T22 and Champion.

About the only rifle mods you can reasonably make would be pillar bedding the stock and recrowning the barrel. There doesn't have to be a burr to require recrowning. I tried everything on a rifle that wouldn't shoot and finally recrowned it. Just as soon as the cutter started cutting I could see how bad the muzzles geometry was. The rifle instantly shot better. But here's the dissimilar situation, this rifle wouldn't shoot at 50yds. Yours does, so it's a technique or bedding issue.

Good luck.

[Jerry G]

Make sure there isn't any part of the trigger assembly that is touching wood. Floating the barrel is very easy and cheep to try. When you test ammo, don't even bother to shoot at any target other than the rams and don't bother with $20 per brick ammo.

[JDBraddy]

Ok Guys, It was a little windy the last couple times I shot, so I went out and tried again this morning, with slight 5mph brease from the left. I don't think it's nesisarily my bench technique, wich is farr from perfect, but I'm not doing that bad with my Centerfire rifles. Here's some 100yd groups shot with my AR-15.



Below are some groups I shot at 50yds with my Kimber 82 using CCI-SV



Now, Here are some groups I shot at 100yds today with the Kimber 82 using SK Standard Plus



I checked the crown and it looks pretty semetrical. No burrs or anything. I've had this Kimber since 1992 and have been using it simply for small game hunting, and since I seldom if ever take a shot at game beyond 40yds it never been a problem. Now, I used it to shoot my first silhouette match, simply because it's what I had available. Obviously, it's not competative with the custom target guns I see you guys using, but I'd like to get it to shoot if I can, but I'd probably have to sell it to afford another high end .22 like an Anchutz, so don't want to do anything that would hurt the resale value. Also, would something like a stock CZ 452 really be much of an improvment accuracy wise?
Thanks,
JDBraddy

[BCloninger]

Every gunsmith has their own formula, but most would probably start with pillar bedding, followed by some combination of crowning, chambering and trigger tuning. If it were my rifle and budget were an issue (it always is, right?) I'd get the bedding first and see what else is suggested.

[hugh]

I'd try better ammo before I did anything else. Maybe clean it, first, but don't condemn it until you try a selection of good ammo.

IMHO
hugh

[Innocent]

JDB, I can tell you that another local machinist here in Florida bought a Kimber 82, had the same issues that you are having even with a selection of Eley Tenex and down with varying speeds, as well as some Laupa center x and other "high" quality ammo I had. I know this goes against everything gunsmiths tell you, but he solved it with putting some screws in the forend so that they put pressure against the barrel, about an inch back from the end. It worked in tightening up the group, but I hate to say this, out of the box CZ 452 still beat it on groups at 100 yds. The owner is a high master high power shooter, and very good all around shooter, and I also shot the rifle, and it never met the level of accuracy that they claim.

Mary

[Trent]

JDB, I can tell you that another local machinist here in Florida bought a Kimber 82, had the same issues that you are having even with a selection of Eley Tenex and down with varying speeds, as well as some Laupa center x and other "high" quality ammo I had. I know this goes against everything gunsmiths tell you, but he solved it with putting some screws in the forend so that they put pressure against the barrel, about an inch back from the end. It worked in tightening up the group, but I hate to say this, out of the box CZ 452 still beat it on groups at 100 yds. The owner is a high master high power shooter, and very good all around shooter, and I also shot the rifle, and it never met the level of accuracy that they claim.

Mary

I've made something similar to these.
http://imagegallery.webspawner.com/gallery.asp

[JDBraddy]

Hmm, that's what I was afraid of, you see, I've had it so long now, almost 20years, it's kind of an old friend. I never shot it that much, it's been kind of a safe queen, but has never grouped like I thought it should. I have a customized Volquarzen 10/22 that will outshoot it any day. This isn't the first time I've tried to figure out how to get it to shoot, and it's so pretty, but every gunsmith I've ever taken it to, has told me not to waste my time or money, just go find a used Anchutz, or and old 40X action and let them build one. It may be time to just give the old girl a good cleaning, and put her on consignment somewhere, and start looking for something else to shoot. I'm not even shure how much to ask on this one?

[JDBraddy]

I've made something similar to these.
http://imagegallery.webspawner.com/gallery.asp

Trent, for some reason your link and URL doesn't work for me.

[Innocent]

JDB...you shouldn't have any problem getting your money back after 20 years...there are still a lot of people out there that believe that they shoot well, but then they never shoot further than 50 yds. I know of two in my area that bought them recently for 50 bench rest game, and love em.
Good Annie, 40X, CZ452 and yes even Winchester 52 actions you can build a great 100 meter rifle, and some don't even need anything.

Mary

[JDBraddy]

Ok, so how does this work? I've never had a rifle "Built", and I'm not even sure I know what I want. Do I run out and buy a stock CZ or Anchutz, then have it modified a piece at a time? Do I call a gunsmith, and tell him I don't know what I want, just build me something that will shoot? I have a little cash saved, the Kimber and an extra AR I had are up for sale, I have the 10/22 to shoot in the mean time, so what do I need to do to start the ball rolling?

[hugh]

First, go to a match, a big match and look at all the different rifles. Ask questions, touch them, hold them, ask questions, don't drool on them.
second, shoot a bunch of different rifles. This is very important. There are common themes, but you might find something that you HAVE to have or can't stand.
third, figure out a budget, and get the best you can afford. Wooster, Evelio or Pharr will build you anything you want.
fourth, ignore anything clonninger says.
fith, buy good ammo. Life is too short to shoot cheap stuff.

enjoy the ride!

[jneihouse]

Couple of thoughts....First, as Mary and others indicated, there have been reported from several corners accuracy issues with Kimber...You can lay it off to the gun preferring a particular ammo, mechanical failure or whatever, but the problem is still there. I've owned several Kimbers and eventually gave up on all of them because I like to shoot, not tinker and tracking ammo lot numbers down. One thing you said in your post did ring a bell. You stated that you had used the gun primarily for small game gunting and seldom took a shot over 40 yards. If you have fed the gun a diet of copper clad ammo, especially high velocity plated ammo that may be a part of the problem. The jacketing material is deposited from the bullet to the bore and its tough to get out. Over time it builds up, even in "clean" rifles and it takes a dedicated effort to get it all out. I've looked at dozens of "clean" rifles that show deposits in the bore. These will seriously screw up your groups and it will naturally be more apparent at the longer distances....Also, a naked eye inspection of the crown will often miss nicks and burrs that can affect accuracy. Take a look at it under a magnifying glass. It doesn't take much to cause a gun to go wild in that area. There are several home remedies for re-crowning a barrel (a google search will turn up several results) but I personally wouldn't settle for less than a re-crown by a gunsmith that fully understands the importance of this area and the accuracy you are trying to acheive. Good luck

Kitty