Savage Mark II instead of CZ-455???

[jesterdog]

Hi guys!
I'm new here. Got my daughter involved in 4-H shooting sports, namely smallbore silhouette. We (sometimes we both compete at local match) have been shooting my Marlin semiauto (I forget what model it is and it is in the safe). We are wanting to step up to the next level of rifle. I have been reading about the CZ line of rifles and that the 452 is now the 455. I should stop here and explain that our budget is going to be in the $450 range. Anyhoo, I have also read about considerable criticism with the 455's trigger (the main reason we need a better rifle).

So, having said all of that, what about the Savage Mark II rifles. I was poking around on their website and I like what I see and they are in our price range.

Bottom line: 1) Our semi auto does not feed the "good ammo" that our friendly competitors let us sample. The rounds that it did feed were super tight groups. 2) The trigger on this marlin is the worst. So, I want a bolt action rifle with a great trigger for $450 or less. And, we use a scope....the scope price is not included in the rifle budget of $450.

Any love for the Savage????

thanks for any and all comments

[dustinflint]

The Savage is pretty nice but if I were you I'd find a used CZ 452 that already has an aftermarket trigger or a trigger job. You should be able to get that for $450 and they come up pretty regularly. You can always place a WTB ad in the Marketplace on this website.

If you cant find a rifle with a trigger job already done, I suggest a Timney trigger and a trigger shoe.

I would hold out for the 452 over the 455 just because it seems that the 452 is just a little more accurate.

Dustin

[Jerry G]

A friend of mine has trouble extracting empty shells after he cleans his Savage. After about 15 or 20 shots it seems to work again. Take that for what it is worth.

[Greencb]

I started with a Savage it was a very accurate rifle on par with my current CZ. I had misc extraction issues but what finally forced me to sale the Savage and get the CZ were the magazine issues. The CZ has given me zero issues, I am extremely happy with it.

[ShootingStar]

Jesterdog,
I can't add much to the discussion, but did want to aks a question that came up this weekend when a new shooter brought out his savage Mk II.

Does it have a tapered barrell to meet the Hunter Rifle rules?

Since the young man was a new shooter and this was the only gun he owned, I let him shoot it, but it did not look tapered.
I suggested he measure the barrel a couple places and confirm that it was indeed tapered, but also told him to keep coming back and I'll let him shoot. After some time (to get him hooked) I'll tell him he can't win and prizes in the Hunter Rifle Category (if it is not tapered).

Keep the rules in mind with whatever rifle you purchase. Good luck and keep shooting.

[DavidABQ]

I don't have a Savage but I do have a CZ 455 American. The trigger on my rifle does needs some work and to be honest the balance point for me is too far rearwards.

It shoots tight groups but I don't see any reason that a Savage can't do the same thing. I shot an old Marlin with what has to be close to a 3.5 pound trigger last month in our local club match. I shot a 23 in the Hunter class. While that is not a spectacular score it gave me a second leg up to AA from A.

Have you read up about Savage rifles over at www.rimfirecentral.com yet? Lots of good information over about rimfires in general.

[jesterdog]

So what is the deal with Hunter vs Standard? Is the competition stiffer in one vs the other? Should I start in one class and graduate to the other? Please elaborate so that I make an informed decision. I like the look of a bull barrel, but maybe I need to re-consider?

thanks guys

[dustinflint]

Jesterdog,

The competition is not stiffer in either standard or hunter and you don't need to graduate up to one. The classification of the shooter generally determines the scores necessary to compete and win a class. For example, it will generally require a higher score for a master class shooter to win his/her class than it will take a AA shooter to win his/her class, regardless of the match being a standard or hunter match.

You should not buy a bull barreled rifle for your first silhouette rifle. Here is how the standard/hunter thing works:

If you show up to a high power or smallbore silhouette match, there will be two types of matches that you can enter in: a "standard" match and a "hunter" match. Usually the standard match takes place first and the hunter match is shot directly afterward. (They are not at the same time, so you can shoot both matches) The difference in the matches is the rifle that a competitor is allowed to shoot:

The maximum weight for a standard gun is 10 lbs, 2 oz and it can have any safe trigger, a bull barrel, and a target-style stock (with thumbhole, if you want).

The maximum weight for a smallbore hunter gun is 8.5 lbs and it must have a 2 lb trigger and a traditional hunting-style stock (no thumbhole). It also has to have a tapered barrel.

The majority of people shoot one rifle in both classes. That rifle must meet the restrictions of the hunter gun and it will be legal in both standard and hunter.

There are certain advantages to shooting one gun (less expensive, easier to carry around, only one trigger to get used to, only one set of sight settings to keep up with, etc). In my experience, I have not seen a noticeable increase in scores of the standard gun over the hunter gun for those guys that shoot two rifles.

My advice is to try a match or two if you haven't done so. If you decide that you like it (which you will), buy a rifle that you can shoot in both standard and hunter class. If you decide that you want a standard gun after that, you'll know a lot more about what's out there and can make an informed decision.

If I were you, I'd buy a CZ 452, set the trigger at two pounds, and start shooting as many matches as I can get to. If you like the heavier barrels, find a CZ 452 varmint rifle. Those have heavy barrels but they're tapered and the gun is light enough to qualify as a hunter gun if you pick a light enough scope.

Dustin

[ShootingStar]

Dustin - excellent response!

jesterdog - Dustin reminded us all: as a new shooter it is best to go to matches and catch the excitement of the game. Most matches will allow new shooters to "borrow" a rifle to compete (you see we all want more people in the sport). Sometimes the rifle will be one that is carried to a match just for that purpose, i.e. extra rifle for use as a loaner. Sometimes the "loaner" rifle is one that will be used by the owner, then be given to the newbie to use in the next relay. So, the best thing you can do - before you buy a rifle - is to go and shoot and have a great time with like-minded folks! Then you can get a better feel for the equipment that fits you body, your shooting style and your wallet.

Many of us recommend a GREAT starter (and actually life-long) rifle: CZ 452 (and sometimes the new model 455). This rifle is proven to perform very well and not break the bank AND will keep shooting better than the shooter up to AAA or even Master Class (the 2 highest classes)!

Get out there, get shooting and get the addiction! Good luck,

ShootingStar

[Innocent]

Jesterdog, welcome to the sport. Dustins explanation of the basic differences between hunter and standard (or sometimes called heavy) is great. I will comment that many matches that are smaller local matches will allow you to choose which rifle to shoot when, rather than specifically stating that one is standard or one is hunter. The larger matches do limit to the standard or hunter at specific times. The main reason you see flexibility in the smaller matches is due to what shooting star said about borrowed rifles. Most silhouette shooters are more than willing to have you shoot their rifle! I agree try before you buy! shoot several matches, my response is go with the 452, in whichever stock style that suits you for a starter rifle. I purchased my 452's when they first came in the country, so I was well into the game by then, but I still get them out and play with them at times. They are always with me at local matches for loaner guns, and I also use them at the various NRA Ladies days that I coach at.
While trying different rifles you will also get an opportunity to try different scopes, which are perhaps more a personal preference than a rifle is. Remember in a scope you are looking for repeatability in mechanics (click adjustments that repeat settings without breaking!), clarity and what you can hold for power. Most are comfortable with some variability such as 6.5 X20, or 4X18....
Good luck and I look forward to seeing you at a match sometime.

Mary

[dmakley]

I'm fairly new to silhouette shooting and looked at both rifles you mentioned. The problem with Savage is that most of their nicer models have the non-tapered bull barrels. I bought a CZ 4542 put a Timney trigger on it and love it. As a back-up I picked up a CZ 455 American for about $325 on sale at the local gun store and put a $16 "Yo-Dave" kit on it that made the trigger much nicer, got it down to just over 2lbs with very little creep, and I'm no gunsmith it was pretty easy to install. At our local matches you see a lot of Anshutz's and many CZ 452's, very few Savages. As far as accuracy my 452 and 455 shoot about the same. The people at our shoots are very friendly and most of them carry spare guns to the matches and are happy to let new people shoot them.

[jesterdog]

Cool! Thanks guys! That is exactly what I needed to know. Now I just need to sell my .357 to get some cash and I'll be good to go. Looks like a used CZ may be the best bet. We'll see what turns up.

[staff3704]

I currently own both rifles and have shot both in matches. They are both good guns and will do well in matches. If you plan to do nothing to the trigger then get the Savage (with their new trigger) but if you don't mind doing something to the trigger the CZ is my personal favorite. Someone suggested Yo-dave kit .I used a Brooks kit. There are several things you can do to make a better trigger or use a gunsmith. It will be easier to win matches with a better trigger (low pull weight and no creep or grittyness). Never get the pull weight so low that the gun becomes unsafe. Good luck.

[cedestech]

I currently own both rifles and have shot both in matches. They are both good guns and will do well in matches. If you plan to do nothing to the trigger then get the Savage (with their new trigger) but if you don't mind doing something to the trigger the CZ is my personal favorite. Someone suggested Yo-dave kit .I used a Brooks kit. There are several things you can do to make a better trigger or use a gunsmith. It will be easier to win matches with a better trigger (low pull weight and no creep or grittyness). Never get the pull weight so low that the gun becomes unsafe. Good luck.

2# trigger for hunter rifle.... "safe" for Standard.....

[jesterdog]

Sold the .357, bought a CZ-455 American. Will sight it in tomorrow.