Difference in Standard and Hunter stocks?

[cslcAl]

I agree with Paul, we don't need anymore rule changes. What we do need is a jig for hunter rifle that conforms to the dimentions of a more traditional hunting rifle. I'm not saying eliminate the Pharr, Wooster, Nesika style, but an Anschutz 54 should not fit.
Also no one said you have to shoot two guns at a match, local or national. I just shot std for years. They used to shoot them together as one match with more relays, and when they split the matches up I decided to shoot the hunter match in the afternoon rather than just sit there. There are still lots of shooters who only shoot one match.
I too gravitated to shooting one gun for both matches, but I have another identical gun that will be a back up if needed. After I put some effort into hunter rifle I found my scores were as good or better than my std gun, which does support Dustins statement that it's more shooter than equipment. You do my friends get the results from the work you put into this game.
WORK!!! I thought I retired? Well I do still after all the years enjoy this kind of work. Don't ya'll get in a big tizzy over all this, like I said this debate is 30 years old and going strong.
Shoot safe and have fun.

Al Foust

[Varn]

Al, Dustin, and Paul,
I can't agree with you more on the current hunter rules. I would have loved it if they would have stayed with the old Hunter rules. Al the jig for Hunters is a GREAT idea! And like Dustin, I have a 54:18 Hunter sb rifle and I have custom Hunters for HP. An interesting aside, last Sat I shot Al's match at Cslc with a completely factory Tikka 6.5x55 in Standard and a Custom Barrelled .260 Tikka in Hunter. Both had 2# triggers. With one I shot a 28 and had 18 chickens in a row. The other I had a 26 and no 10 in a rows. Care to guess which one Dustin? That's correct, I shot the higher scores that day with the factory gun. Which proves Dustin's point perfectly. I was only capable of high 20's scores that day. No rifle would have turned those scores into 30's. It is so much the shooter and not the equipment.
When I gave the example of the HS Precision stock being allowed in Hunter that didn't mean I was condoning it. That is far from the case. On the other hand, I'm not sure how it could be denied since it was allowed at Ridgway at a National competition with a Nationals Jury deciding it. I'm making the assumption that club level tournaments are sanctioned. If they are not then my thought process on this is flawed. If they are then we are bound by Rule 1.3 which states that the local sponsor of each type of competition must agree to conduct the authorized competition according to NRA Rules. Maybe Dustin can weigh in on this a little more?

[dustinflint]

I'm making the assumption that club level tournaments are sanctioned. If they are not then my thought process on this is flawed. If they are then we are bound by Rule 1.3 which states that the local sponsor of each type of competition must agree to conduct the authorized competition according to NRA Rules. Maybe Dustin can weigh in on this a little more?

All of our local matches are NRA approved and we follow the NRA rules, BUT we don't turn anyone away because they aren't shooting a rifle that meets the rules. That's simply because none of our local shooters really care what the other competitors shoot. In fact, personally I don't care what any of my competitors are shooting no matter whether I'm at a local or championship match; and I believe that if you're worried about what I'm shooting, you're not going to be able to beat me anyway. Why should I waste my mental energy worrying about what you're shooting? You still have to shoot the target off the rail.

Championship level matches like the Southern Nationals are a bit different. The rules have to be followed. Even though none of the competitors may care that someone is shooting a 16lb rifle, it won't be allowed in Winnsboro where it might at a monthly match. That said, even at championship matches, we should try to interpret the rules to allow the rifle to compete; so unless the rules strictly forbid something, it's going to be allowed rather than turning away a shooter that likely traveled a long way to shoot a match. What makes this game great is that no one ever gets beat because his competition had a bull barrel or a 1.5 lb trigger.

I think shooters should have a GREAT time when they go to a match and being turned away because if a useless rule is no fun. A couple of years ago, my first year shooting, I traveled several hours to a big match with my brand new (to me) AA TX200 sporter air rifle. I bought it from a shooter who had installed an aftermarket stock that was VERY similar to the factory stock. I had been practicing with it and was really excited about the match. I was protested because the stock was not a factory original and after the jury met and any chance of me enjoying the match was gone, I was disqualified. It would have been really easy for me to just give up the sport after that. By the letter of the rule, I was probably breaking it - I was not breaking the spirit of the rule as I got no advantage from the stock. Sometimes it's better to just shut up and shoot and have a good time and try to win the match on merit instead of nitpicking a rule.

Dustin

[Varn]

Dustin and Al,
Thanks for the input as match directors from both of you. My point was to show what had been allowed at the National level in the past and to give input from different parts of the country. I would hate to see someone spend their money on a stock and then be protested as Dustin was. I'm with Dustin, I really don't care what the others are shooting, I can only control my shots. I think both of you have summed up my feelings on it as well. As Al stated, Let's not get in a tizzy over this long standing debate over hunter rules and lets all have fun and promote the shooting sports together. Thanks again for the input guys!! Mark

[cslcAl]

Mark, I think you know me well enough that I run a tight ship when it comes to following the rules. That being said let me clarify my statement about not allowing a particular stock. I have had people bring equipment in the past that clearly did not conform to the rules. I will allow them to shoot the match, they are not eligible to win any awards.
As for the HS stock, that particular stock design has been around as a target style stock even before there was a hunter rifle class. I myself used them for years. I knew that stock was used in hunter rifle last year, but I was not aware it went through the jury process.
Even if it did, how would a match director who was not there and had no knowledge of that situation be expected to allow that stock at a local hunter rifle match? The rule states "hunting style" stock, and I'd be hard pressed to believe that you'd find a majority of shooters who would call a HS Precesion Spoden style a hunting stock.
Thinking back though, my first SB std rifle was a 540X Remington and I put it in one of those stocks. I DID go squirrel hunting with it on occasion, and it was painted Baby Blue. So there you go, I very well may have set the precedent years ago and didn't know it.
Cowboy is Muuuutch simpler, thank God.

Al Foust

[Varn]

Al,
Who knew you were a trendsetter with that baby blue stock? You bet I know you run a tight ship with the rules. As well as try to make CSLC matches fun and enjoyable for everyone. From our discussion on this I don't want anyone to get the impression that CSLC matches are uptight or not fun. Quite to the contrary, Id recommend them to anyone. Good people, well run, and a beautiful facility. In regards to the HS stock I do believe that stock was brought before the jury but I may be mistaken. I do know it was certified as a legal hunter at a National match and that was my whole point to the original poster. And your point on a local match director not knowing is exactly why I brought it up. That way people are aware that it was certified at a Nationals. Prior to that I wouldn't have thought it was a hunter stock either. I really love the Hunter jig idea. That would really help in situations like this where someone wasn't sure. If XYZ company's stock had fit the jig in the past then the buyer could proceed with confidence. And Cowboy being simpler I'm sure is no accident. I don't shoot it but feel that everyone involved in it has seen what has occurred with light rifle, chin guns, hunter rifle etc. and doesn't want a repeat of that. Thanks again to AL and Dustin for your input and hopefully Cedestech can make an informed decision based on what we have all discussed here. Mark

[boats]

I am with Al on how to run a match, and can say from personal experience with Lever Silhouette he puts on a good one.

Out club we let anybody shoot, never turn safe rifles away. However there are rules and other shooters that stay within them that are due a fair match with no advantages equipment wise to another shooter. We run Hunter, Standard and anything else is allowed to compete as a non conforming rifle. I shoot silhouette sometimes with a 14 LB Hook plate Palm rest Set Trigger 20x Super Target Scoped Schuetzen rifle as non conforming. Never publish my scores in match results or claim any pins class jumps etc. I shoot much higher scores with it than my stock 1712, Apples and Oranges it's another class of rifle.

For the life of me I cannot understand the push to get something into Hunter class that is not a Hunter class rifle. Standard class is available and if the custom rifle is built to standard rules you will shoot higher scores. Barrel weight and light trigger are significant advantages as is a better stock shape for offhand use. I suspect the passion for rule bending Hunter Rifles is Internet based, it's a question that almost never comes up in matches with our club shooters.

Boats

[dustinflint]

For the life of me I cannot understand the push to get something into Hunter class that is not a Hunter class rifle. Standard class is available and if the custom rifle is built to standard rules you will shoot higher scores. Barrel weight and light trigger are significant advantages as is a better stock shape for offhand use. I suspect the passion for rule bending Hunter Rifles is Internet based, it's a question that almost never comes up in matches with our club shooters.

First, no one is trying to get a rifle into hunter class that is not a hunter rifle. We are discussing whether a stock complies with the hunter rules.

There are two classification of rifles: standard class and Hunter class. If your rifle qualifies for Hunter class you get to shoot twice the matches. If you show up to a big match you get to shoot all weekend instead of one day. Why is it hard to understand why someone would want to get their rifle into hunter class?

Dustin

[OldRanger]

As someone new to this sport I don't know if my opinion counts for much, but here it is anyways. You would lose a lot of competitors if you changed the rules on hunter. Many people, myself included, have spent a good deal of money on a gun that is within the rules. If the rug were pulled out from under me I would be pissed. Its not worth it to travel all over the place to shoot just standard IMO. I agree the rule should have always been a regular stock hunting rifle with no modifications from the factory (or something like that), but it isn't. Of course that would still mean the 1712 was legal, so every right hander is fine. But as a lefty I would be SOL. Anyways, what am I saying? Don't change the rule now. We are too far down the road. If you want to make a jig to fit the current rules that's fine, but don't change the rules on us now.

[cedestech]

[ First, no one is trying to get a rifle into hunter class that is not a hunter rifle. We are discussing whether a stock complies with the hunter rules.

There are two classification of rifles: standard class and Hunter class. If your rifle qualifies for Hunter class you get to shoot twice the matches. If you show up to a big match you get to shoot all weekend instead of one day. Why is it hard to understand why someone would want to get their rifle into hunter class?

Dustin

[cedestech]

Funny thing is most of the people have misread the question. No one has asked for a rule change. Just a clarification. If anything the rule SHOULD be clarified, not changed..... Maybe those standardized tests aren't working out so well....

[dustinflint]

As someone new to this sport I don't know if my opinion counts for much, but here it is anyways. You would lose a lot of competitors if you changed the rules on hunter. Many people, myself included, have spent a good deal of money on a gun that is within the rules. If the rug were pulled out from under me I would be pissed. Its not worth it to travel all over the place to shoot just standard IMO. I agree the rule should have always been a regular stock hunting rifle with no modifications from the factory (or something like that), but it isn't. Of course that would still mean the 1712 was legal, so every right hander is fine. But as a lefty I would be SOL. Anyways, what am I saying? Don't change the rule now. We are too far down the road. If you want to make a jig to fit the current rules that's fine, but don't change the rules on us now.

Dont worry, the rule is not going to change. Everyone is too invested now. As it stands, there is almost no reason to include the NRA in anything we do anyway and if the rules were changed it would probably cause most shooters to ignore the NRA or break away. The only real service the NRA does for silhouette is keep national records/grand slam records and put on the nationals (and approve matches that dont need approval anyway). The nationals could be run just as well by gun clubs and any high school programming student could create a database on a website in about half a day that could do for free exactly what the NRA is doing (approving matches, keeping national records and grand slam records).

Anyway, as Emmett said, we've taken this conversation a long way from the original question. Your rifle is safe.

Dustin

[Jerry G]

Dustin, they did pull the rug out from under many of us when they changed the "light rifle" to "hunter rifle".

[cslcAl]

Difference in Standard and Hunter stocks?
by cedestech on Sat May 24, 2014 11:12 pm

Is there one? I read the rules and Hunter states only "hunting style stock" with no thumbhole permitted.

Is a Anschutz 54.18 style stock permitted in the hunter class?


Ok, I went back and read your original question. My opinion based on my years as a match official is that an Anschutz 54 MS, and a HS Precision Spoden are Target stocks. Now, my advice to you before you invest time and dollars into restocking your rifle would be to send Greg Connors a photo of the stock and ask him his opinion. Al Foust

[cedestech]

Honestly I'm not that worried about it. I was reading the rules and realized there was a huge hole in them that leaves a lot to individual interpretation. What is OK to one person or jury is a abomination to another. I just can't believe I am the first to point it out. I'll probably use the flat top Wooster I have but it would be nice to just buy a stock and drop a action into it.

No worries.