new silhouette classifications

[DavidABQ]

How about the, "The Mighty and Grand Order of Kevinbear Silihouette Association?"

[kevinbear]

How about the "US Silhouette Shooters Association"? Then we can include the few pistol shooters that still shoot NRA pistol silhouette.

What a monumental task it would be to start a new organization from scratch.

Maybe we ought to wait to hear what the real plans are and only then abandon ship.

I disagree that it would be a monumental task because it wouldn't be starting from scratch, what does the NRA really do for your local silhouette club?
Print and sell us overpriced score books, I could have that done and probably charge less.
Keep track of 10 in a rows and give out grand slam pins, easy enough to do on a laptop and the pins could be made by the local trophy shop or even a jeweler, not like there are dozens of them given out each year. Once a good source was established everyone would buy them from a single supplier, same with 5-10-15 in a row pins.
The score cards we use are already printed locally.
Rule books, use the current ones but simplify them, I would guess that nearly every person that shoots this game has access to the internet, post them on steelchickens.
I don't believe they ever supplied targets, I buy them from Quality targets like everyone else does.
Insurance, most clubs pay for it anyway, not sure if the NRA helps on this but as long as other activities are there doubt they would exclude silhouette.
Nationals, I'm under the impression that the Whittington center is no longer supported by the NRA, they would probably be overjoyed at hosting the Nationals for us if we paid them. Not sure about PA club that hosts the nationals, never been there.
Don't get me wrong, I love what the NRA does in support of the 2nd amendment and have been a life member for many years but the way they've run the silhouette program and nationals is terrible. Does anyone like award points? Does anyone think that nationwide silhouette policies should be decided by whoever shows up one night during nationals? I could type for 10 minutes coming up with some of moronic things that have been done or not done over the years by the NRA in silhouette.
Silhouette already has an internet sight....ya it's called steelchickens, match results could be posted to a subcategory in your clubs name after every match.

[PhxShooter]

Kevin,

When you list the things that need to be done it really "sounds" pretty simple. The "doing it" however is where the problems arise.

1. Exactly who is willing to be responsible to have the score books printed and distributed? (Every Year?) Is he/she or are they going to front the money for the initial printing and distribution? After the initial printing and the funds are received for the sale of the books what accounting is there going to be for the funds. Is this going to be a profitable enterprise or a 501c3?
2. Exactly who is going to keep track of the 10 in a row scores and distribute the Grand Slam awards nationally. What format are we going to use for the reporting of the 10 in a row and what forms? Who is going to pay for sending the pins out? Probably $2.00/award. This assumes there would continue to be "Grand Slam" pins.
3. Who is going to decide on the new simplified rules? Sounds like there is perhaps our first committee. I disagree that nearly every person that shoots silhouette has access to or uses the Internet. Silhouette primarily is comprised of the older generation some of whom stay as far as possible away from the Internet. What do we do with/for those that don't have access? Believe it or not, they're still out there. And of course who is going to pay for the rule books and their distribution?
4. Targets and club insurance have always been supplied by the clubs so no problem there.
5. Nationals - I'd agree that the Whittington center would probably be very willing to have the match there for a fee. The association, however, would need to provide the office staff necessary to do the scoring, provide the target setters, (No we should not have the competitors set their own targets at a National Championship) the scorers, and even thought the NRA didn't provide them we should have range safety officers. The association will also need to provide the multi-million dollar insurance policy that the Whittington Center will require. I know there is at least one club in the East that has in the past asked to host the Nationals. Who's going to decide where the Nationals are held? Who is going to collect all the money for the Nationals and in effect run the Nationals.
6. Who is going to keep track of the membership in the Association?

Bottom line we're going to need some form of Board of Directors to run the association and probably going to need at least one full time paid person to be responsible for the day to day grind. I've been on multiple local and state BODs and it was difficult enough to run those organization with all volunteers. I don't want to think of a national all volunteer association responsible for tens of thousands of dollars of the members money. The entry fees for the Nationals alone exceed $25,000.

I agree that the NRA is a fantastic 2nd amendment org. That is where their expertise ends. OK let me say that in my personal experience with the NRA and silhouette they suck at providing the guidance and knowledge needed to assist the shooters in that division. I think the NRA running matches is a necessary inconvenience.

I am in no way saying it can't be done. I'm just saying that when one gets down to the details the real work begins. There is going to need to be a great group of volunteers willing to devote a considerable amount of time to get a new association off the ground and then keep it running.

Just a few thoughts and again we're hopefully putting the cart way in front of the horse. Maybe what Dennis will have to say when he's able to respond to the membership, that he stirred up with his seemingly premature announcement, won't be as bad as we're assuming.

Craig
Life/Benefactor Member

[BrentD]

Craig, you forgot to mention that whomever takes up this not-so-trivial task must also have a very thick skin, because in very short order, that person will soon be vilified just like the NRA is now.

[kevinbear]

PHXshooter
I shoot at 3 different clubs and probably make the wrong assumption that match directors everywhere are as good as these 3-4 people, there already doing nearly everything you listed and the state championships are run better than the nationals.
Out of the 20-25 people I know that shoot silhouette locally maybe one doesn't ever visit steelchickens on the internet, his grandson could probably help him find it if the need arises!!
Nearly everything you listed could easily be accomplished on this website, no doubt there would have to one full time person and a couple of part time people to manage the association.
One of the clubs I belong to has 1500 members and a very active schedule not to mention the physical size of the place, there are 3 paid employee's.
How many active silhouette shooters are there in the US?

[kevinbear]

I would guess that there's 125 silhouette shooters in Colorado including BPC, cowboy and rifle silhouette. California and Texas probably have more than that but many states have none.
Let's take a head count, name your state and best guess on number of people, don't count them more than once {same person shoots more than one type of gun} . One of the clubs I belong to doesn't ever shoot sanctioned matches , don't follow the rules either, I didn't count them.

[BrentD]

There are, minimally, 6 different disciplines that shoot some flavor of NRA silhouette. Each of them needs their own governance, their own score and record keeping, classification system, their own rules committees and their own local, state, regional, and national matches (and that's just in the USA). If you guys think all of this can be done by a couple of immortal folks at their kitchen table with a laptop and a borrowed website who will agree do this until Earth falls into the Sun, I'll vote to stay with the NRA every time.

I predict that in your first year, and every year thereafter, folks will post on steelchickens.com that the state and regional matches are better run than the nationals (which I do not, personally, find to be the case even now, actually). ;)

I think the NRA could improve a lot on how they do things, but I don't fool myself into believing it would be an easy operation. I notice no one is jumping up to take on the task.

[OldRanger]

Just want to throw this out there. Mordecai currently runs this website and is an avid shooter. Jerry Webster has riflesilhouette.com on his own and obviously loves the sport and cares enough to promote it for free. I'm also a programmer. Just saying there are resources out there in our current members. I would donate my time to build and maintain a computer system to keep track of all of the things needed for a new organization. Everything from yearly membership to matches and awards would be a simple database (which I already built the basics of) and a dozen web pages. If I had the server space (which the new organization would need to pay for) I could have a complete system up and running in a week. Of course I'd miss stuff and have to modify it as we went along, but hey, you get what you pay for!

I agree the money to start up an organization would be a bit tricky. We would need dues paid so we could print stuff so we could run matches. I would say books wouldn't be necessary, they are an unnecessary expense. The organization should keep track of the classifications like the NRA is proposing now. It only makes sense. Individual members or match directors could be sent their classifications, but also the classifications should be posted on a web site. And when a match director puts in the folks shooting at their match (for bigger registered matches mostly) they should get a list to print out with every member and their class. Again, this is all very rudimentary programming and easily done.

If I had a vote I would say the new organization should be a non-profit. Personally I donate to a number of good causes every year and would be willing to donate to this new group instead of my usual ones.

Of course I still think this alleged change is nothing to get up in arms about. Until we know the details.

[GregG]

This we can do better keeps pooping (not a spelling error) up. IMHO a new organization is just the fastest way to kill silhouette. Silhouette is already in decline, all we need to do is fragment the sport. Sorry, I think most will stay with the NRA. Why do you think we can do better? We already on this form have had big disagreements about how to run the sports.

[Jerry G]

Canadian silhouette shooters did break away from their parent orgasm (Shooting Federation of Canada) about 15 or 20 years ago. They seem to be getting along just fine.

[GregG]

Jerry, I think you will be comparing apples and oranges. The United States has a strong sanctioning body the NRA. Right now we have to admit that Silhouette is on the decline. We can blame the NRA or ourselves it does not change this fact. Another standalone silhouette organization IHMSA and it is in financial as well as attendance also. So I do not believe this is totally an NRA problem.

IMHO a separate organization is the best way to kill rifle silhouette. I for one will not join yet another organization, the NRA, TSRA, IMHSA, USPSA are enough.

Greg

[GregG]

Jerry, if you check the Canadian Nationals last year they had about 48 shooters. Not sure how this is doing OK?

[OldRanger]

Greg, I agree having another organization for no real reason is not a good idea. However, if the fees the NRA charges grow too much that would have a more adverse effect than anything. Its already an expensive sport, but if the fees are too high than maybe it is time to explore all options. For now I agree the NRA is the best bet for keeping the sport strong, even though I think they do a _______ (insert your favorite negative word here) job.

for example:
Crappy
Terrible
slapdash
horrible

[kevinbear]

I'm not suggesting that we quit the NRA for no good reason, only if THEY make changes that will make the sport decline, we would be in effect saving the sport. It's my opinion that raising fees and going back to the cards from the early 80's are steps backwards and result in lower attendance.
Our clubs around here have been on a steady incline for several years, we need bigger ranges with more targets, there is no need to re-invent the wheel now.
One can only speculate on the changes but,
Does anyone believe that renaming the classifications is going to bring new people to silhouette?
Does anyone believe that doing away with books is going to save money for the NRA.{13 dollars doesn't cover the printing costs?}
Does anyone believe that increasing fees is going to increase attendance?
Does anyone believe that the NRA is going to take the extra money from silhouette shooters and re-invest it back into the sport?
I invite any of you to answer these questions.

[kevinbear]

There are, minimally, 6 different disciplines that shoot some flavor of NRA silhouette. Each of them needs their own governance, their own score and record keeping, classification system, their own rules committees and their own local, state, regional, and national matches (and that's just in the USA). If you guys think all of this can be done by a couple of immortal folks at their kitchen table with a laptop and a borrowed website who will agree do this until Earth falls into the Sun, I'll vote to stay with the NRA every time.

I predict that in your first year, and every year thereafter, folks will post on steelchickens.com that the state and regional matches are better run than the nationals (which I do not, personally, find to be the case even now, actually). ;)

I think the NRA could improve a lot on how they do things, but I don't fool myself into believing it would be an easy operation. I notice no one is jumping up to take on the task.

Not sure who you think does all the things you listed now but it's for the most part done by local match directors who wouldn't even notice if the NRA was gone until nationals comes around, if you told them ahead of time 3 of the best could run the nationals easily.
All the rules are in place already, no reason to change them.