High Power Bullets

[malinois]

So much of our game is accuracy oriented...but todays excercise is about where the rubber hits the road or in our case how the bullet hits the steel....With all the assorted calibers out there lets skip caliber and discuse bullet brands or types...Which ones seem to be holding up best on impact...A max, sierra MK, Lapua secnars,bergers to transfer energy on target to get the job done....I have heared of bullets splattering and not doing the job. So is velocity a factor also with slower bullets doing better or not.

[Bob Mc Alice]

I think you are talking mostly about ram knock down performance...right? All of the mentioned bullets were primarily designed for maximum accuracy.....on paper. No consumer bullets come off the drawing board with hitting steel targets and imparting maximum energy as the intended use. (armour piercing excluded)They just happen to do well at knocking them down. All common bullets are made of lead and copper gilding jackets that are softer than the steel targets and therefore turn to dust at common impact speeds.

I dont believe for a second that any of them can impart more "dwell time" on the target over another brand of equal weight. The violent disintegration is measured in milliseconds.I doubt that precision scientific lab testing could prove that brand X delivers more wallop than brand Z on steel with all testing parameters being equal.

When resetting targets all that can be found of the remains of the bullet is the round copper disc of the base. The rest is grey dust and tiny shards of copper jacket.

From my own point of view, being a dyed in the wool 7-08 fanatic ,I have knocked over rams with just about every brand and weight of 7mm bullet 130 grs. and up. (never tried Barnes solid copper X bullets). Common hunting bullets do the job just as well as the pricey match type slugs. When ever I see any brand 7mm hunting bullets for sale cheap I buy as many as I can afford. They shoot very well , make cheap practice ammo and knock down rams just as good as match bullets. Hunting bullets have thicker jackets than target bullets to hold together better when penetrating animal tissues. But all bets are off when hard steel is the target. They blow up on steel just like any other bullet will and it is doubtful that any more measurable energy is delivered to the steel.

During Wednesday practice at Raton I fired off a box of 50 Sierra 160 gr. Game Kings I got for 50 bucks for 500.... CHEAP! Every ram hit went down. Dave B was spotting when I tipped four rams in a row with my CPT load....a 130 SMK @ 2550 MV.

Tom B. was toppling rams with his 7BR and 175 gr. Game Kings with a 500M impact velocity of approx. 1700FPS. Those bullets were still exploding with a grey dust cloud. The popular cartridges all do a good job with the right weight bullet. Of course...putting them on target is the most important thing.

[kevinbear]

Aren't those 7's wonderful, never any doubts on whether the rams are going down. My cousin gave me a box of approx. 20 boxes of 7mm hunting bullets, most of which are Nosler partitions which I no longer use for actual hunting. Can't wait to shoot some rams with 175 partitions, you have a load for those Bob?

[Bob Mc Alice]

Kevin, not so sure of the accuracy potential of partitions at long range. But just stoke the cases full of Varget for maximum accuracy potential.

I should have added in the original post that I feel bullet construction does not really matter from one brand to another when impacting steel. This is just one mans opinion. Come on folks...Malinois opened up a good thread to expand on...lets hear some other opinions.


(psssst....malinois....St.Louis HP Regional this weekend !! You got all your ammo loaded yet?)

[jneihouse]

Good observations Bob...makes perfect sense in the practical world that we shoot in...At Ridgeway last year I shot 142 gr SMK;s pretty hot at rams...rang two or three, bullets all going "poof" on impact according to spotter...I backed the load down some, searching for more "dwell" time, found another sweet spot for accuracy, had no "rings" at Zwolle...Used the same load at Raton this year (with the wind blowing out as you will remember) and still rang two...the two "rings" did come after the winds came up, so the setters may have been wedging the feet of the rams giving thim a bit of a tilt...bullets still went "poof" when they hit the target...On Wednesday at Raton in calm conditions I shot a few rams with 123 SMK's, all went down...shot a couple with 108 Lapua Scenars, hit them high and they went over....guess the only valid conclustion from the sparse data I collected is that "If you continue to hit them some will fall down"...

Kitty

[kevinbear]

Here's a an interesting little tidbit of information, when the new generation of AR-15's came out in 90 or 91 I bought an H-Bar with 1-7 twist. I loaded some 69 grain MK's in it { that was before they made 80 grainers}and shot a silhouette match, I was suprised that it would knock down all the targets including rams when they were hit high in the horn, tip of the nose, high in the butt.
My point is under the right conditions even varmint/small calibers will knock down targets, that doesn't make them viable cartridges for the game. It comes down to how many your willing to give up for 10 shots of comfort. That would be zero for me.

[lone ringer]

Bob, Dan Theodore made a contraption that would let him test the hardness of the bullets and they do make a difference believe it or not. Like you, most people use Sierra bullets and the only thing there you have to compare is Match Kings VS Game Kings.

If you were to shoot mild steel with either bullet you would see that when you shoot with match bullets they splatter same as when you shoot hardened steel but when you shoot hunting bullets specially the ones that have lead tips you will notice great big craters on the mild steel gongs.

There are people like Bob Cauterucio that make custom bullets with thicker jackets and another maker that made 6mm bullets with harder cores. Both of those bullets make a difference and that is why people buy them. The Washington group buys a lot of 141gr for their 6.5's

I have used 144gr Lapua bullets on my 6.5's for many years and they have proven to be superior when shooting rams.
Regarding other bullets I am of the opinion that they have to be heavy and you have to drive them fast enough. There is a point where if you do not drive them fast enough or if you drive them too fast you will ring more rams.

If you work with a marginal caliber like a 7mm TCU at 500 meters you can notice that more so than other calibers if you don't have the right velocity on the other hand if you shoot a 7-08 it's possible to drive the 168 match bullets so fast that you will start ringing rams.

Hornady used to make an A-Max bullet that had an aluminum tip, they still make them for their 50 cal bullets and those were the best bullets for rams as far as I was concerned.

Handgun pistol shooters are more careful when it comes to how the stands and the targets at ram distance are because they regularly hit 40's and can't afford to ring rams. Rifle shooters on the other hand from the beginning have accepted ringing rams now and then, I do not know for what reason but I can tell you we put up with it or just accept the fact without doing anything about it.

For the most part I believe that if we paid more attention to the stands, put stops on the front of their bases so that the target setters would not be able to push them forward and if we made the point to alternate the direction the rams are facing so that they would not bend like bananas we would not ring as many rams as we do know.

[Jason]

After having issues with ringing rams myself using the 130-grain Norma bullets and seeing Shakes ring some with the 142 Matchkings, I picked up some of the 139-grain Lapuas on the advice of Jim Atherton as a possibly tougher choice. Here's a link to those on the MidwayUSA site.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=745935

We'll see how they work if I heal up enough to shoot the WA state match at the end of the month. If they don't work well, I'll probably pick up some of the 144-grain Lapuas that Tony mentioned. I believe that these are the ones.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=326284

That .636 ballistic coefficient is pretty darn impressive. I thought the .615 on the 139-grainers was good. I just need to find the 144s that are already moly-coated.

[lone ringer]

After having issues with ringing rams myself using the 130-grain Norma bullets and seeing Shakes ring some with the 142 Matchkings, I picked up some of the 139-grain Lapuas on the advice of Jim Atherton as a possibly tougher choice. Here's a link to those on the MidwayUSA site.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=745935

We'll see how they work if I heal up enough to shoot the WA state match at the end of the month. If they don't work well, I'll probably pick up some of the 144-grain Lapuas that Tony mentioned. I believe that these are the ones.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=326284

That .636 ballistic coefficient is pretty darn impressive. I thought the .615 on the 139-grainers was good. I just need to find the 144s that are already moly-coated.

Jason, Powder Valley has them for $129 per 500 or $11 dollars less per box than midwayusa. I have some that are already moly-coated if you want to test them. People tell me that they are not as accurate as the 139gr ones but in my rifles they are accurate enough. Agustin and I use them all the time. By the way the Jackson trigger is on the way.

[Jason]

Thanks, Tony! I hadn't heard of Powder Valley before. Just did a search for it on the web and looked around their site. Their prices are excellent.

[Jim Beckley]

I was at a HP match one time when Dan T. was asking Jack Hill about bullet performance on rams, and Jack said that there were to many variables. In my mind if Jack Hill was talking about bullets it was the same as reading it in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John!

[malinois]

Bob as a matter of fact just finished reloading yesterday !!! But those pesky county people wont let me go...I will however be able to make Ridgeway for thier state match...The discusion did raise a few points and it boils down to bullet mass as a major factor...and from what I hear the shooters talk about there is a point of losses as velocity goes up...This game is more complicated than most will it give it credit...Accuracy both mechanical and shooter ability...Bullet toughness and velocity at impact..whew..it is a fine line and there are the other things ,points brought up with the stands...I think that the stands are also a major headache too !!!

[Jerry G]

Velocity is a factor. Seems the real fast bullets do damage to the close targets and just vaporize on the rams. If you have access to a program that calculates momentum such as the Oehler program does, I think that you need something on the order of 35.5 lb-f/s to take the rams with a low hit on the sholder or front leg. The others are no problem for a .243 with an 80gr bullet. I have however spun pigs 180 by shooting them on the end of the nose and they were still on the rail. I am going to stepup to a 6.5 x 47L. The parts are on order and will be working sometime in the spring.

[Joaquin B]

Tony,

You are quite correct. The aluminum-tipped bullets in .50 caliber are best for rams!

All kidding aside, I bought 1000 Hornady 6.5mm Amax 140 gr. bullets a few years ago, and loaded in my .260 to produce 2600 fps, they have yet to leave any rams I have managed to hit standing. The softest bullets, in my humble opinion, seem to be the Bergers. I've experienced more than a few "blue cloud, ram still there" episodes with them.

Regards,

[shakes]

Jason, when you saw me ring those rams i was trying out a new load for rams. I loaded them with 40 grains instead of the normal 43 grains I normally load. I since gone back to loading them with 43 grains and havent rang one since. I think the 142's with the right powder charge will do the job no problem.